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[Music]

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isn't that just beautiful

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hello everyone welcome to the show i'm

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martin willis your host

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and we have an interesting guest he's

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got an amazing background his name is

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larry hancock he

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is joining us for the show this evening

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and we're going to get into his

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background his book that he wrote came

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out back

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in 2017 is called unidentified and

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that's before the series came out

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they took it from him unidentified the

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national intelligence view

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problem of ufos i love the way that's uh

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termed

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the ufo problem when you hear them

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talking that way all the way back into

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the

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um it's an interesting problem i don't

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know if we'll ever solve it but it

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should be uh

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something we're looking into and that's

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why i really love doing this show

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last week i made a mistake and uh that

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was i

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said uh the wrong blog the blog that

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came out last week and it's still up

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there for you to read

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is called ufo occupants of the 21st

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century

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and uh that's really interesting about

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how you know what people have reported

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that they're seeing you know the

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different forms and things like that

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over the years so uh actually of this

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uh century actually um so check that out

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that's over at podcastufo.com

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where all our blogs are i am reposting a

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blog that uh

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michael lauc wrote back in 2016.

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kind of has a kind of an extra meaning

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this week

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uh because of our guest next week i'll

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talk about that in a second but it's

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a repost of the 1973 pascagoula incident

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again by michael luck he wrote that and

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uh that

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is the blog that actually kind of

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had calvin parker come out of well

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he had not been on any interviews at all

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for something like 30 years and he

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reached out to me

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and uh i kept trying to verify make sure

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it was really him

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and uh he first time he actually showed

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up on a

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on any type of show and something like

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30 years was on our podcast

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i i do think it was the same year back

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in 2013 we've been in touch ever since

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i got to meet him and his wife wayne out

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in

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conversation he's actually very

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uh intelligent and very kind man and

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so he'll be joining us next week and but

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before he does

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he was recently in a discovery

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plus series called uh

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ufo witnesses it or something like that

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oh boy i don't have my notes in front of

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me

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but um we're going to have ben hansen on

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first

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who's actually the lead in that show

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he'll be on first for the hour and then

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calvin's going to join us

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and come right through to the whole end

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of the show so

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ben's going to be on for the first hour

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calvin is going to join

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us and beyond for the remainder of the

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show it's always fun uh talking to him

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and you know there's a lot of times

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people will say

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along the lines of you know these old

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cases why do you keep rehashing these

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old cases

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well his case has gotten so much

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publicity

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started out with this book and now

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there's a movie that's going to be made

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he's been on several feature television

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programs

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over the last several years and some

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verified witnesses have come

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have come forward that actually saw the

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craft across

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the river that night the pascagoula

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river so we're going to be talking about

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that and much more next week so stay

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tuned and this week

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our guest i'm going to bring him in

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right now

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welcome to the show larry hello martin

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it's good to be here

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yeah larry i always do this with uh with

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people that are new

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and uh new to my show i know you've been

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around you've been looking at this

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topic for a long time you have a really

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an intriguing background

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anthropology cultural anthropology i

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think is very fitting

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when it comes to this uh to this topic

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and uh now there's different studies of

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anthropology but cultural is

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is it along the lines of like sociology

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and things like that as well

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yes that's that's what it would be

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closest to in in terms of the other

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sciences it

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it focuses on the social

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impact cultural impact of of activities

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so it's but cultural anthropology has a

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much

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longer perspective generally than

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sociology does goes back much further

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yeah and uh are we basically

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i know this is a show about ufos but we

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basically

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sometimes i feel like we're slipping

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backwards and becoming more primitive

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as we move along here uh are we growing

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culturally do you

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do you think and you know i know we have

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more technology

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but uh we still seem to be very tribal

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and and

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you know i mean do you see any any

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movement forward in the human race and

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socially i would have to say recently it

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does

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look like backward rather than forward

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one one of the measures

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as far as cultural anthropology is

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concerned is

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overall objectivity uh

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interacting with the environment in a

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very

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objective positive manner not

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not diluting yourself with a lot of myth

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and

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uh you know we seem to be moving away

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from that

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the the anti-science the move towards

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anti-science

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the move not into fact checking is

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certainly

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a move back for most of western culture

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let's put it that way it's it's a break

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with the direction we were going

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yeah well i still think that we can

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in in a lot of ways there are segments

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of the population that are certainly

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moving forward and

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and and this topic is one that

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you know science has not taken seriously

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as you know forever

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and you're involved with the scu and uh

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that's

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you know a scientific look at this topic

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and but before we get into any of that

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and your book and all that um can you

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give a little background and your

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history and what actually

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got you interested in the ufo topic to

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begin with

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i as i mentioned before right we

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actually started the show one of the

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one of the things that goes into my

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background is the fact that i'm

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i first became involved and interested

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in ufos

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in the period 1964 1965

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when i was still in high school that was

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a very active period for ufos a lot of

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news coverage a lot of media coverage

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uh there were local incidents that you

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know you could follow in the press and

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that's

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as

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time i became involved with both apro

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and was a field investigator did a

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couple of at least small reports for

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apro and joined nycap as well

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and then moved away from it

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uh for a large part of my career which

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was

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an interesting mix of technology and

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marketing

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and then once i retired got back

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into history national security and

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decided to revisit

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the subject but um a very long history

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in following the subject of ufos

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uh the bookshelves behind me are

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primarily literature

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of various sorts on the ufo phenomena

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have read almost everything over a

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40-50 year period on ufos

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pretty deep background there yeah and

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now i get to ask this question

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quite often and i'm asking you off the

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cuff here

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um is there a particular book that you

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consider

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uh someone newly looking into this topic

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that would be a really go-to book

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i i there are a couple of books and

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interestingly

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um a couple of older books

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that i i i was kind of anticipating you

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might ask that

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um wow blind saucers

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who's the author uh

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amy michelle oh okay uh

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yes and it is a focus primarily on the

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the wave of ufo incidents across

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france in the 1954 and 1955 period

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yeah he does and and what is most

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interesting to me

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is he was one of the first to really try

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to do something

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that i refer to as pattern analysis he

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actually

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the book title refers to the the

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straight line mystery

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and he was exploring whether or not a

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particular

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different series of incidents on certain

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dates

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would reflect a path of a given

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ufo and whether you could track it

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whether you could plot it whether you

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could identify characteristics that you

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could match

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so it was a very scientific approach and

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it included both

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uh interestingly enough both aerial

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observations

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and landings and some encounters

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and it's it's one of the finest pieces

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of work on that on a whole body of

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incidents

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that just generally doesn't get a lot of

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discussion these days

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um another book

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that i would consider similar to that

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that doesn't get

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discussed nearly enough is night siege

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the hudson valley ufo

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sightings oh okay yes and

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the reason i bring that up is that's

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much more contemporary

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but it's also very detailed over a

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period of several years

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and again my interest is not in

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individual incidents per se it's whether

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or not you can develop a pattern of

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what's emerging in these activities

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and so it's interesting to jump from

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that 1954 the book was written in 1958

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to this that was written

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just a decade or so ago uh and

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look at two people that were looking for

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patterns in ufo incidents

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so those would be a couple that strike

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me yeah

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and who's the author of the last one oh

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um philip imbrago

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okay with bob pratt and it was

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introduced by dr heineck

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ah wow now did you ever

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meet dr heineck by chance

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i passed by dr heineck one time in the

288
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:10,240
hallway in chicago

289
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,160
but i did not introduce myself he

290
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:13,839
appeared to be busy and

291
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,480
i'm i'm kind of bashful that way so i

292
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:18,079
know i never really

293
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:21,839
met him well i've met two of his sons

294
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,680
actually i'm sorry just one of his sons

295
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:25,920
up i did a podcast with two of his sons

296
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:26,560
but

297
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:30,160
uh paul uh paul heineck is such a riot

298
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:31,680
he's so much fun

299
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,120
and uh real nice guy um so i read all of

300
00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:37,120
heinek's work and i think

301
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:39,680
if you sweep aside everything else the

302
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:41,839
one remark that i absolutely love from

303
00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:42,480
inec

304
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:45,040
basically to paraphrase is one of the

305
00:12:50,829 --> 00:12:46,959
reasons we can't

306
00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:50,839
really deal with ufos that in any single

307
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:53,680
incident the scientific community can

308
00:12:56,949 --> 00:12:54,320
come up

309
00:12:57,910 --> 00:12:56,959
with a reason why it would not be

310
00:13:00,150 --> 00:12:57,920
anomalous

311
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,160
you know you just there's nothing you

312
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,480
could do aside from part one and

313
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:03,839
you know in front of them where they

314
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:05,519
couldn't come up with an alternative

315
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:07,920
explanation and heineck said that after

316
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,480
of course after years and years of

317
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,320
investigations themselves and i think

318
00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:14,639
you really will grasp the problem

319
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:19,040
yeah yeah i remember one of the i've had

320
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:22,399
dr seth shawstak on three times i think

321
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:24,160
and the first time i remember i had him

322
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:25,839
on i said how much

323
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:28,959
evidence would you need to

324
00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:31,920
um agree that we're being visited from

325
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:33,440
somewhere else you know what what type

326
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,000
of evidence

327
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:36,959
would you need and he he replied to me

328
00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:37,360
that

329
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:40,240
he would need a wing of the smithsonian

330
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,279
full of it

331
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:43,440
that's what he said so i mean you're

332
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:44,320
right i mean

333
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,880
even if you know the proverbial landing

334
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:48,399
on the white house lawn

335
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,639
happened how many people would still you

336
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:52,160
know question it not that why would they

337
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:53,600
ever land there anyway but

338
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:57,279
still if if it was told by our

339
00:14:01,829 --> 00:13:59,040
government that yes

340
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:01,839
um you know through nasa or something we

341
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:04,880
found intelligent life you know perhaps

342
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:06,560
people would be engaged that way but i

343
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:08,480
mean just a random landing or something

344
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:09,120
like that it's

345
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:11,279
i don't know who knows there's always

346
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:12,720
going to be this segment of

347
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:14,880
the flat earthers you know whatever

348
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:17,279
happens

349
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,320
well and that's one of the reasons just

350
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,120
why i moved off in a different direction

351
00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:25,600
in my own work to kind of say is

352
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,440
is there a way that you can deal with

353
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:29,360
this kind of a problem

354
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:32,560
where you know you're never going to get

355
00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:35,600
enough evidence to

356
00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:37,519
you know convince everybody and draw a

357
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:39,680
conclusion unless you have what you just

358
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:40,399
said

359
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:43,279
and that's what led me into something

360
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:44,160
that's

361
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:48,639
community called indications research

362
00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:51,440
which is is quite interesting i got into

363
00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:52,639
it when i was doing

364
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:56,079
a book titled surprise attack which

365
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,600
deals with how the intelligence

366
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:59,360
community forecast

367
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:02,320
things like that and indications

368
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,240
analysis is an interesting technique

369
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,160
because the assumption is

370
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,560
if you're talking about an adversary

371
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:10,399
you're never going to have

372
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:13,680
all the information you want before

373
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,240
they do what you don't want so how do

374
00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:18,959
you treat it and there's actually a

375
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:22,959
a body of a methodology that says how

376
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:24,639
how can you deal with something where

377
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,639
you can at least make an estimate of the

378
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:28,880
situation

379
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,880
if you can't have absolute proof how can

380
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,240
you at least estimate

381
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,120
what's what might happen and that's kind

382
00:15:39,749 --> 00:15:37,360
of the direction i've taken because i

383
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:39,759
you know the air force was never going

384
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:41,680
to find a single incident that would

385
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:43,600
convince them

386
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:45,440
we're probably never going to do that

387
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,000
unless we have physical evidence

388
00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:51,120
so that was my decision to wrestle with

389
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:53,759
the problem a different way

390
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:57,040
so if i'm if i'm re remembering it right

391
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:58,800
is it the twining member

392
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:01,120
memo the twining memo where the they

393
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:02,959
call it the estimate of the situation

394
00:16:09,269 --> 00:16:06,240
is that is that the one yeah yes

395
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:09,279
and that is yeah go ahead that's

396
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:12,639
standard intelligence community

397
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:15,759
uh practice and usage and i mean

398
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:18,480
normally the first thing the first thing

399
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:19,199
when you do

400
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,199
when you engage a new subject that

401
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:22,800
you've been tasked with

402
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:26,160
is to do a collections memo which tells

403
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:27,360
everybody

404
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:30,160
where to look what to look for go out

405
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:30,800
and start

406
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,480
collecting information and then in 1947

407
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,720
that's exactly what air intelligence did

408
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,639
they issued a collections memo

409
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:41,040
and actually came up with a very solid

410
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:41,759
profile

411
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:44,880
by the end of 1947 they knew

412
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,720
and put in writing exactly what they

413
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:48,079
were looking for

414
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,199
and then the result of that was supposed

415
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:53,519
to be an estimate of the situation

416
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:55,600
and actually the first estimate of the

417
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:58,000
situation that the air force made

418
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:01,199
was that these objects were real uh they

419
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:03,839
could actually profile them in terms of

420
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:06,640
flight characteristics and physical

421
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:09,839
definition and that they assumed

422
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:12,240
the estimated situation were it was a

423
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:12,880
real

424
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:16,880
were something that had to be taken

425
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:18,959
seriously

426
00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:21,439
and you know that was so long ago 19

427
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:23,520
wasn't that late 1947 when that was

428
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:24,319
written

429
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:25,919
i believe it was that was the year i was

430
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,200
born so yes it was a long while ago

431
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:31,600
that's how you gauge it yeah uh yeah you

432
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:33,760
were born in the magical year huh

433
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:37,120
yeah i was hopefully there's no meaning

434
00:17:43,110 --> 00:17:39,120
to that

435
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:43,120
yeah you arrived when they did um so

436
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:45,760
uh you call yourself or i saw in your

437
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,240
bio that you call yourself a document

438
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:50,480
geek or something like that or is that

439
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:51,760
what it is

440
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:54,240
yes and uh you want to talk a little bit

441
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:55,840
about that

442
00:17:59,669 --> 00:17:58,880
yeah when i started uh actually a little

443
00:18:02,789 --> 00:17:59,679
bit before i

444
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:02,799
entered retirement uh as a history buff

445
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:04,960
as a history major also that was

446
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:06,960
you mentioned cultural anthropology but

447
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:08,720
it was also a history major

448
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:11,600
um i've always been interested in

449
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:12,240
history

450
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:15,200
particularly of the 50s and 60s so when

451
00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:16,240
i retired

452
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:18,160
before i even thought about writing

453
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,520
anything there were two or three

454
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:21,520
subjects i wanted to look into it

455
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:24,960
of course including ufos and

456
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:28,240
i became involved for years and years

457
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:32,160
in foia work for your request but

458
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:35,520
at that time for you freedom of

459
00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:36,480
information

460
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,880
was difficult in itself and even going

461
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:41,039
to the national archives was difficult

462
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:41,760
this was

463
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:47,360
the internet really became what it is

464
00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:48,240
now

465
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:49,600
and the only way you could get

466
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:51,440
information uh

467
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:54,640
was to actually go to nara

468
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:57,280
and dig into their files the national

469
00:19:02,070 --> 00:18:58,559
archives and

470
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:02,080
and so i spent probably seven or eight

471
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:04,400
years becoming very familiar with

472
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:08,000
documents from the cia the fbi

473
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:11,120
uh military intelligence just learning

474
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:14,160
how to read documents and after reading

475
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,320
oh probably 10 or 15 000 pages of

476
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:20,720
documents it kind of became familiar

477
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:22,480
with the various agencies

478
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:25,679
how they wrote how they did reports how

479
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:27,679
you could track reports so

480
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:30,480
i did that before i ever ever thought

481
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:31,440
about actually

482
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:34,960
writing on any subject and i'm

483
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:38,000
i'm a board member now of a foundation

484
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:40,960
that houses close to two million

485
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:41,760
documents

486
00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:44,720
online on various subjects from the 50s

487
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:45,679
and 60s

488
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:48,480
um so that i think that probably does

489
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:51,200
make me a document geek

490
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,720
um now this is just uh i'm curious

491
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:56,000
because i don't know how these things

492
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,039
work

493
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:00,320
if you go into the national archives and

494
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,080
are you able to access

495
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:06,400
anything that's unclassified basically

496
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:07,200
and if so

497
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,400
is it redacted what you can access

498
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:13,039
you can access anything anything there

499
00:20:17,549 --> 00:20:13,760
and and

500
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:17,559
a a good deal of what it's got to be

501
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,679
declassified and released when released

502
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:23,679
and released the the agency that's

503
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:25,520
holding it releases it and

504
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:29,520
and quite frankly um a lot of things

505
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:32,400
are released simply because not in the

506
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,000
early years not in the 50s

507
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,320
the 60s or 70s but towards the end of

508
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:38,640
the last decade

509
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:42,000
most agencies set up a a standard

510
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:42,960
protocol

511
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:45,679
you know these sorts of documents we

512
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:47,600
will destroy after a certain period of

513
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,400
time

514
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:50,320
these sorts of documents will just go

515
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,840
ahead and release to the national

516
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:53,600
archives

517
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,679
so what you find are those that are

518
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,200
cleared and released

519
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:59,360
and those are usually headquarters

520
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:00,720
documents

521
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:02,720
it's relatively easy to get a

522
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:04,799
headquarters documents

523
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:07,360
the problem is most of the field office

524
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:09,280
documents that don't get referred to

525
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:10,480
headquarters

526
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:12,240
get destroyed at the end of the

527
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,520
destruction period i mean

528
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:15,600
at the end of the collection period

529
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:18,320
because it's just too much paperwork

530
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:21,120
but if something makes it to something

531
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:22,480
makes it to

532
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,120
the national archives due to a standards

533
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:27,760
records release from the agency

534
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:31,520
or because it was collected as part of

535
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:34,000
a congressional investigation a

536
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,000
congressional inquiry

537
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:39,039
something where a whole batches of

538
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:41,039
records were turned over to congress for

539
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:41,919
a certain

540
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:44,480
certain reason then those are all also

541
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:47,679
normally sent to the national archives

542
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:50,480
but once they're there now the only

543
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:51,440
trick is

544
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:53,840
of course as you imagine they're they

545
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:55,840
actually are very helpful but you've got

546
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,400
to know what you're looking for because

547
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,919
they can't help you

548
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:02,000
unless you can give and the same thing

549
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,280
goes to for you

550
00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:05,600
you just really can't tell the

551
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:06,400
government

552
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:09,520
you know i want something

553
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,200
in general terms because they're not

554
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:13,520
going to be able to find it for you

555
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:16,480
in any reasonable sense so if you can

556
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:19,360
pretty well define it

557
00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:22,559
you know as to agency and year and

558
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:23,600
subject

559
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:26,640
then you can get it eventually now you

560
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,840
know as you know john

561
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:30,400
greenwald does a lot of work um on the

562
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,200
black vault for

563
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:33,840
the four years has since he was 17 years

564
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:35,600
old which is pretty amazing

565
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:38,720
and um as far as

566
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:42,159
that work is that something that you

567
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,080
continue to do or have you done that

568
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:46,320
yourself

569
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:50,159
i have i've not done that on ufos

570
00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:53,200
i've done it with other subjects i

571
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:56,080
i've written on the cia and the fbi

572
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:57,760
pretty extensively

573
00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,159
and i have collected a lot of those

574
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:02,559
documents and released them

575
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:05,679
some back in the old days on dvds quite

576
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:06,960
frankly because the

577
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,760
web wasn't available and then later on

578
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:10,799
onto

579
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:13,280
the website uh the mary farrell

580
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:15,360
foundation is inside i was referring to

581
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:16,159
but that

582
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:19,360
that work was he has done ufo specific

583
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,880
work my work has been in

584
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:22,720
other areas with documents where i

585
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:26,000
really collected them and released them

586
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:28,640
i see i've looked at a lot of his

587
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:29,760
material

588
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:32,320
oh yeah we can't help it there's i don't

589
00:23:35,350 --> 00:23:33,360
even know

590
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:35,360
i'm he's due to come on the show fairly

591
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:37,039
soon i'm going to ask him how many

592
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,640
if he had to guess how many documents he

593
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:40,400
has how many servers

594
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,120
he has full of documents so uh stephen

595
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:44,720
asked this question can you see the

596
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:46,480
underlying documents that were used to

597
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:47,279
create

598
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:50,480
the blue book of blue book reports

599
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:52,720
do you absolutely exactly yeah yes you

600
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,200
can and one of the things those are

601
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:57,840
those are online and actually a great

602
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:59,120
number of those i

603
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:01,919
cite in the book unidentified because we

604
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:03,279
can go back and actually

605
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,559
look at the the original reports

606
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:08,240
and there are two or three ways that you

607
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:09,760
can look at that

608
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:11,679
a lot of them are available through the

609
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:13,919
nycap website

610
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:15,760
a lot of them are available through the

611
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,080
project 1947

612
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:21,360
website so you can

613
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:25,360
you can look at a 20-page

614
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:28,559
report that was put together by

615
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:31,679
perhaps a field officer and later on by

616
00:24:38,230 --> 00:24:34,720
somebody at the air force by blue book

617
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:38,240
whether it was in sign or grudge or blue

618
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:38,880
book

619
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:40,880
you can look at those actual documents

620
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:43,440
and and i've been doing a lot of those

621
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,240
lately i've

622
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,720
i'm involved in a couple of ongoing

623
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,480
pride research projects

624
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:51,039
and that's where we go we go back to

625
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:52,240
those original

626
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,520
incident documents how about that

627
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:57,679
speaking of blue book i want to make a

628
00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:00,159
comment last week i ran a

629
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,000
video clip and i'm going to run the

630
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:03,679
remainder of it

631
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,679
and it's basically uh two agents from

632
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:09,840
project blue book being interviewed and

633
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:11,360
someone wrote in the comments

634
00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:13,760
you know below it hey that that sounds

635
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:14,799
like a cover-up and

636
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,600
yes exactly that's what we're talking

637
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:19,279
about so i'm going to bring that

638
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:22,080
uh of the rest of that clip up um at our

639
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:23,840
break at the top of the hour

640
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:26,480
but my comment i mean my question to you

641
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:28,799
is uh

642
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:30,320
it's pretty obvious that there were

643
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,559
other things that

644
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:35,120
the government must have been looking at

645
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:36,960
that really didn't have anything

646
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:39,679
to do with uh project blue book in other

647
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:40,320
words

648
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:43,520
they went somewhere else um that's been

649
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:45,200
a rumor and i don't know if it's true or

650
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:46,080
not

651
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:50,000
but if so if they did go some where else

652
00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:52,640
do you think documents will be uncovered

653
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:53,200
to

654
00:26:01,269 --> 00:26:00,720
that there was something some part of

655
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:01,279
the government

656
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:04,320
researching other than blue book well

657
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:06,799
certainly that we there were documents

658
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:07,679
that went to

659
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:10,480
air intelligence for example that didn't

660
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:11,760
go to blue book

661
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,760
and and even i write about some of that

662
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:14,799
because you can

663
00:26:18,950 --> 00:26:17,279
you can find air intelligence memos that

664
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:18,960
clearly blue book didn't know about i

665
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:19,679
think

666
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:22,080
probably one of the most spectacular

667
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:22,960
documents

668
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:26,880
is comes out of the army

669
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,679
there were a lot of army and navy

670
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:31,919
incidents that did not necessarily end

671
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:38,470
the army did a series

672
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:41,840
of scientific triangulated

673
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,720
measurements uh compiled all these

674
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:46,960
readings high quality stuff

675
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,039
and tried to send it into the air force

676
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,640
at that point in time

677
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:52,240
which would have been in the project

678
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:54,400
grudge error error

679
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:56,080
they didn't really want to see that kind

680
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:57,520
of information

681
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:00,799
interestingly enough later it did end up

682
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:02,880
at blue book through other channels

683
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:06,080
but i guess the difficulty with all

684
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:09,679
this is that if it ended up

685
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:12,559
we would love to see navy reports from

686
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:14,080
ships

687
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:15,919
we don't find a lot of those you'd have

688
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:18,559
to go back and find the navy log

689
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:20,720
now the way to get that is actually to

690
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:22,720
find the ship you're looking at

691
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:24,799
and go back through and there are ways

692
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:26,000
to search logs

693
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:28,399
uh interestingly i just got through

694
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:30,480
totally unrelated subject

695
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:34,080
um proving something by going back to a

696
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:36,880
navy log from 1961

697
00:27:40,470 --> 00:27:39,279
that showed that a super carrier was

698
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:40,480
someplace it wasn't

699
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:43,600
supposed to have been at a given time so

700
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:46,080
there are ways there are ways to do that

701
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:47,039
but you're not

702
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:48,799
that's probably not something that

703
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:50,480
you're going to find at nora

704
00:27:55,669 --> 00:27:53,760
the interesting thing is the navy

705
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,679
there there are lots of places where you

706
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:57,919
find information within the service

707
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:00,960
with individual unit histories

708
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:03,120
with individual ship histories or

709
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:05,840
squadron histories in the air force

710
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:08,640
but you really have to go in different

711
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:10,159
directions to find them

712
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:13,279
uh and and that's the most interesting

713
00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:14,080
thing now

714
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:17,520
and and in many cases i the only reason

715
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:19,120
i found that was because

716
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:22,399
the naval historian uh gave me a lead on

717
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:23,039
that one

718
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:27,919
so yeah i think it is possible to find

719
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:30,000
to find new things but you're not going

720
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,200
to find them

721
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:32,880
in the traditional places that we've

722
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:35,919
been prospecting for decades now

723
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:39,039
right right now as far as the navy you

724
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,640
know when you think of

725
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:43,200
the navy and encounters i think of the

726
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,399
nimitz case

727
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:46,399
but um you know and of course the the

728
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,520
air force has

729
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:50,159
you know over the years had encounters

730
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:50,720
but

731
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,440
other other navy are you aware of other

732
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:55,600
navy encounters over the years

733
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:57,679
maybe i'm just forgetting them oh

734
00:29:02,870 --> 00:28:59,520
absolutely again i write

735
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:02,880
about a couple of them in the book uh

736
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:06,399
one in the uh in the atlantic

737
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:09,679
uh actually between florida and cuba

738
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:13,440
where a navy carrier got overflown by

739
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:18,080
a mac plus object

740
00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:21,279
multiple radar ship radar detected it

741
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,080
ground radar detected it they sent an an

742
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:26,159
interceptor after it it couldn't catch

743
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:26,720
it

744
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:29,120
and the end of the report actually

745
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:30,799
interestingly

746
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,880
speculates that it was a soviet

747
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:34,320
reconnaissance flight

748
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:36,640
over the carrier probably coming out of

749
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:37,679
cuba

750
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,120
um so there are there are not

751
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:43,200
nearly as many as we would like for the

752
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:45,279
navy um

753
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:48,559
and it's it's unclear the navy never had

754
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:51,200
a centralized reporting

755
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:54,559
location like blue book um

756
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:56,960
and so that way that they're much harder

757
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:57,679
to find

758
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:59,600
the people that are good at it did get

759
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:01,360
out of ship records

760
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,159
uh not out of some centralized navy file

761
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:11,200
yeah and you know with

762
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:14,320
in the case of the the nimitz

763
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:17,440
for instance it i find it so strange

764
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:20,640
that some of the people involved were

765
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:21,760
told

766
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:24,320
you know not to say anything at all and

767
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:25,200
some people

768
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:28,000
were left freely to talk about it it's

769
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:28,480
kind of an

770
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:31,600
odd situation in that way

771
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:34,960
um actually i don't find it

772
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:38,320
i don't find it as odd as as perhaps i

773
00:30:42,230 --> 00:30:39,600
might having

774
00:30:44,430 --> 00:30:42,240
seen all of these reports and documents

775
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:44,440
because a lot of times the

776
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:47,760
investigations and inquiries involve

777
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:50,880
multiple groups and multiple agencies

778
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:53,760
for example given the location of the

779
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,799
nimitz

780
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:56,640
it's very possible at least two

781
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,519
different navy headquarters

782
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:01,919
may have been aware of the incident no

783
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:09,509
and the different agencies and services

784
00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:10,720
don't necessarily

785
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:13,120
talk to each other nor do they have the

786
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:14,480
same protocols

787
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:18,159
uh given that that was offshore

788
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:21,440
it's very possible that that homeland

789
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:24,960
or even the cia could but they don't

790
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:26,080
work together

791
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,320
as much as you know people might think

792
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:30,240
that they do it depends on where a

793
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:32,640
particular incident report

794
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:36,000
goes uh you know a message from

795
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,640
from the nimitz went a message from its

796
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:40,480
its headquarters went

797
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,200
who saw it who sent out those people and

798
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:45,200
what the investigators themselves were

799
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:46,480
briefed to do

800
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:50,080
um so

801
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:53,600
if i hadn't seen so many instances of

802
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:56,799
conflict conflicting agendas conflicting

803
00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:57,840
task

804
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:01,840
tactics uh different protocols and play

805
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,799
perhaps i'd be more shocked but i mean

806
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:06,480
it's not that i can explain what

807
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:08,080
happened on the nimbus but it

808
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:10,320
doesn't strike me as all that peculiar

809
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:12,399
given the history i've seen

810
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:16,559
yeah it's funny you know um brazil

811
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:20,000
uh no i'm sorry chile

812
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,080
they their government works entirely

813
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:24,240
together it doesn't matter what

814
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:26,880
arm of the government is out there

815
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:29,039
whether it's simply police or military

816
00:32:32,789 --> 00:32:29,760
or

817
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:32,799
together

818
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:35,120
which uh it seems really strange why a

819
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:36,640
country wouldn't work together

820
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,679
like that um you know because

821
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:41,679
well for instance they actually take the

822
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:43,039
ufo topic

823
00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:45,840
seriously there and work together to try

824
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:47,600
to solve it which i think

825
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,720
that would be really nice if that

826
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:50,880
happened here

827
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:54,960
i the problem is that r that requires

828
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:58,000
what what is actually national tasking

829
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:01,039
that requires somebody high enough up in

830
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:02,399
the food chain

831
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:04,640
uh say at the level in the us of the

832
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:07,279
national security council

833
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:10,640
issue a tasking order to

834
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:13,679
the intelligence community listing this

835
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:16,799
as a priority subject for collections

836
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:20,080
and study and if that happens then they

837
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:21,919
have the authority to go out and

838
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:23,039
essentially

839
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:26,480
require and demand information from

840
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:27,919
everybody

841
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:30,480
and then they they also if they're

842
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:31,919
tasked doing that

843
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:34,320
then it becomes a longer term subject

844
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:36,480
which means they don't look at it report

845
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:37,440
by report

846
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:40,640
incident by incident they get into this

847
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:43,120
indications and pattern analysis that i

848
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:44,399
was talking about

849
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:47,279
the problem with in the us as far as we

850
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:47,919
can tell

851
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:52,240
is that that only almost happened

852
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:56,399
one time and that was back in 1952

853
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,880
when the office of scientific

854
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:00,880
intelligence at the cia

855
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:04,960
actually recommended that the subject be

856
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:07,360
elevated to the national security

857
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:08,399
council

858
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:11,440
and task as an intelligence priority i

859
00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:12,000
mean

860
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:13,599
we tend to think of it well it's a

861
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:15,599
priority if the air force is doing

862
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:18,800
it it's but it's not really that's just

863
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:20,960
the air force that doesn't

864
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:23,520
that doesn't transfer to any other

865
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:24,639
services

866
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,560
or nor does it transfer to any other

867
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:28,720
agencies um

868
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:31,359
and that was the only point in time it

869
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:32,159
almost got

870
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:35,359
elevated to a national security tasking

871
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:38,240
and that aborted with the robertson

872
00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:39,200
panel

873
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:43,280
back in the 1952 time frame because

874
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:46,800
the advisory committee that

875
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:49,280
it has to go through this recommendation

876
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:51,040
from the cia would have had to go

877
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,440
through an intelligence advisory council

878
00:34:57,750 --> 00:34:55,359
to the nsc

879
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:57,760
because the nsc is doesn't get

880
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:59,359
everything it can't there's just too

881
00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:00,079
much

882
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:02,720
and the advisory council determined they

883
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:03,359
would not

884
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:05,599
forward it from the cia and the air

885
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,200
force wanted it

886
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:10,079
the advisory council said we're not

887
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,839
going to do this we're not going to put

888
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,920
our reputations on the line unless you

889
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:16,320
can get a scientific endorsement

890
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:20,160
we need not your concerns

891
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:23,680
we need the scientists to step in behind

892
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:24,240
you and

893
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:27,359
certify that this can be tasked the

894
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:29,520
national intelligence community

895
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:32,000
and that didn't happen which the whole

896
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:33,599
thing wiped out at that point in time

897
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:34,320
but that's

898
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,359
as far as as far as we can tell that's

899
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:39,760
why we've never really had

900
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:42,800
a national intelligence tasking

901
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,480
on ufos what was the exact

902
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:48,720
thing that they were trying to do at

903
00:35:54,069 --> 00:35:50,240
that time

904
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,079
what at that point in time after

905
00:35:57,510 --> 00:35:56,720
after the wave of sightings on the east

906
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,520
coast

907
00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:59,280
and especially the incidents over

908
00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:01,760
washington dc i see

909
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,240
president truman had actually called the

910
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:06,400
meeting we don't have the details of the

911
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:07,200
meeting

912
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:10,000
but the interestingly enough the title

913
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,240
of the memo

914
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,320
that describe that mentions the meeting

915
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:16,160
with the air force

916
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:19,040
is called defense of the capital and

917
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:20,560
apparently this was

918
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:23,760
such concern that questions were asked

919
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,119
with the air force

920
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:27,359
air force intelligence and blue book did

921
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:28,480
not come up

922
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:30,320
with satisfactory answers for the

923
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:33,200
president so he called the cia

924
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:35,839
and said you know they can't give me an

925
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:36,640
answer

926
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:40,560
about three months study

927
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:44,240
the cia concluded that there are there

928
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:47,280
had been a wave of incidents in the

929
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:48,640
southwestern u.s

930
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:51,839
over the major atomic weapons complexes

931
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:52,880
at

932
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,720
uh los alamos they concluded

933
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,880
that something serious was going on

934
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:04,880
whether or not it was reconnaissance for

935
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:06,240
first strike

936
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:10,400
uh possibly and they in air intelligence

937
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:12,480
agreed that there was something going on

938
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,720
over the atomic weapons complex

939
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:17,280
that represented a national threat and

940
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:19,359
that's why both of them recommended it

941
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:22,079
be elevated to the nsc

942
00:37:25,349 --> 00:37:24,320
well that's really interesting i would

943
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:25,359
i'm going to bring this

944
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,800
question up real quick and then i'd like

945
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:28,560
to go back into something you just

946
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:29,440
mentioned

947
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:32,000
right after that that question again

948
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:33,520
from stephen is there any

949
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:36,720
where that archive ufo documents

950
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:40,160
are circuited by date and incident

951
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:43,280
uh yes nycap has them by year

952
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:46,160
by year and month wow that's a nice

953
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:46,640
that's nice

954
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,960
if you look at the nycap chronology

955
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:50,000
that's what you should

956
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:52,320
search for is the nikep chronology i use

957
00:37:59,510 --> 00:37:57,030
okay this is what i'd like to talk about

958
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,520
you mentioned weapon storage

959
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:01,599
um there's a lot you know robert

960
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:03,599
hastings does some really great work

961
00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:06,320
when it comes to all that um have you

962
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:07,359
looked into that

963
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,160
that particular topic yourself do you

964
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:12,320
write about that in your book too

965
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:15,359
that is my prime that's my primary focus

966
00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:19,520
in the book it does two things it looks

967
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:20,800
at

968
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:23,200
essentially the historical chronology of

969
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:25,760
ufos in the intelligence community

970
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:28,880
starting during world war ii you know

971
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:32,240
through 1980 up to 1980

972
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:35,839
and then it looks i posed the question

973
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:36,560
of

974
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:39,520
an intel an indication study that really

975
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:40,960
asked the question

976
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,000
was something going on over the atomic

977
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,720
warfare complex

978
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:48,880
which is of course what the cia and the

979
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:49,920
air force thought

980
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:53,040
back in 1952 was occurring

981
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:55,680
so the rest of that book examines that

982
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:56,800
question

983
00:39:01,670 --> 00:38:59,599
in terms of was there something going on

984
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:01,680
and in particular

985
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,240
was it anomalous in other words could it

986
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:06,160
have been the soviet union

987
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,400
or something basically is something

988
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:10,079
going on

989
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,200
that's that's strange and

990
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:15,440
there's a pattern to it and could it

991
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:17,040
have been an adversary

992
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:19,359
or is it something we don't understand

993
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:20,079
at all

994
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:22,160
so that's that's what i do in the book

995
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:23,440
but most recently

996
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:26,800
i i've carried on that research and and

997
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:29,280
i'm looking at a project right now

998
00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:30,000
that's

999
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:33,440
components

1000
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:38,560
warfare complex that includes the

1001
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:42,880
radioactive materials manufacturing

1002
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:45,920
the design and assembly locations

1003
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:49,040
the weapons weapons production

1004
00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:51,680
sites weapon storage sites weapons

1005
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:52,720
testing

1006
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:55,359
and then detroit deployment of the

1007
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:57,520
strategic weapons which

1008
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:00,880
in the 50 was primarily megaton class

1009
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:04,400
weapons at first at sac bases

1010
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:08,480
then at icm bases

1011
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:11,200
and with navy super carriers and so

1012
00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:12,400
that's

1013
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:17,280
trying to put together a statistical

1014
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,240
analysis

1015
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:20,560
saying was there something really

1016
00:40:24,870 --> 00:40:21,359
anomalous

1017
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:24,880
going on with ufo incidents at

1018
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:27,920
over uh and even at ground level at the

1019
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:29,599
atomic warfare complex

1020
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,560
well that that that's all very

1021
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:35,920
fascinating to me

1022
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,079
and because for one thing

1023
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:42,400
you know we know of the encounters where

1024
00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:43,359
you know robert

1025
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:46,560
salas was involved in and

1026
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,520
another one where the there were i think

1027
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:51,280
six out of 12 of them were

1028
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,800
deactivated and they all weren't

1029
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:54,880
connected together and you know these

1030
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:57,520
bizarre situations and and there was i

1031
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,880
can't remember if it was

1032
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:01,440
our country or russia where uh they were

1033
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:02,720
in launch mode

1034
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:06,240
uh um you know that and

1035
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:08,400
somehow stopped that too but always

1036
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:09,520
involving

1037
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:12,960
you know something flying over uh that

1038
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,040
that's always fascinating me but now

1039
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:17,920
you are actually looking deeper into it

1040
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:19,040
if it's not just

1041
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,800
you know underground weapons that are

1042
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,480
ready to launch there's

1043
00:41:26,309 --> 00:41:24,240
you're looking at all aspects of it

1044
00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:26,319
that's that's what i'm understanding

1045
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:28,640
all the way from the manufacturing and

1046
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:30,640
all the way up

1047
00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:33,119
and what i'm seeing is a progressive

1048
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:34,720
pattern again

1049
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:37,359
science requires that we we plot this

1050
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:37,839
out

1051
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:40,880
and do a statistical analysis but the

1052
00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:42,160
most interesting thing

1053
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,319
and i discussed this in a bit in the

1054
00:41:48,309 --> 00:41:46,240
book because that was just an

1055
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:48,319
initial impression i got when i did it

1056
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,760
unidentified is

1057
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:51,599
there's a progression there's a

1058
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:53,119
progression of

1059
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:57,040
ufo incidents from one type of

1060
00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:00,720
site to another first at the production

1061
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:01,680
facilities

1062
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:05,520
at oak ridge and hanford then moving on

1063
00:42:12,309 --> 00:42:09,280
to los alamos and sandia base

1064
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:12,319
then moving on to the atomic weapons

1065
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:13,839
storage sites

1066
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:17,760
for example at uh fort hood

1067
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:21,280
uh and then then moving on

1068
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:23,119
this is a progression it's these things

1069
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:24,640
show up there's a burst

1070
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:27,760
of incidents over a few months or at

1071
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:29,760
most a year or so

1072
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:32,800
and then it's as if they found what they

1073
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,400
needed to know

1074
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:37,680
and moved on to another type of site and

1075
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,359
and then it moves on to the initial icbm

1076
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:43,599
sites but much earlier than you might

1077
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,240
think it starts with

1078
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:48,880
well it starts with the sac bases then

1079
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:51,280
it moves on to the atlas sites

1080
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:54,560
the titan sites and only later

1081
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:57,599
to the minuteman sites

1082
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:00,160
so it's it's a progression that occurs

1083
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:02,240
over some 25 years

1084
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:05,040
and if that if that pattern is

1085
00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:06,079
verifiable

1086
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:09,040
it indicates something very serious

1087
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:10,000
absolutely

1088
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:12,079
hey we got the one and only uh jan

1089
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:13,119
aldrich

1090
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:16,319
is uh watching on facebook and he wants

1091
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:17,680
to know is there an updated

1092
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:20,720
uh copy of your book no i

1093
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,200
i thought i would do an updated copy but

1094
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:25,200
i'm waiting for these other studies to

1095
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:27,280
gel so i can actually put the studies

1096
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:28,079
into the book

1097
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:31,359
i i had a i had a second manuscript

1098
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:34,160
prepared and then it went no i need more

1099
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:35,040
data

1100
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:38,160
uh i i and by the way thanks jan

1101
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:41,680
i i 1947 is fantastic

1102
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,960
wouldn't have been able to do anything

1103
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:49,030
um all right getting staying on the

1104
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:49,920
topic

1105
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:53,440
of that is it weapons only

1106
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:55,520
or you know there's nuclear power plants

1107
00:44:01,510 --> 00:43:58,400
there's you know is there any other

1108
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,520
you know nuclear related activity where

1109
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:04,000
there's activity

1110
00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:07,359
power plants

1111
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:10,280
but so far i have not seen it be

1112
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:11,520
concentrated

1113
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:14,560
and what you would call iterative

1114
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:17,200
as as we see with the the complex for

1115
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:18,160
example

1116
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:21,599
you might see a visit over a nuclear

1117
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:22,000
power

1118
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:25,200
plant in new york state

1119
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:27,520
and you might see another visit years

1120
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:28,800
later

1121
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:31,839
so you you get a report you know it's

1122
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:34,000
yeah there are incidents associated with

1123
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:35,359
them but when you compare

1124
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:38,400
that to the incidents over

1125
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:40,720
sandia base and the sandia weapon

1126
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:43,119
storage area

1127
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,920
the intensity the frequency is not

1128
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:47,520
nearly the same

1129
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:51,440
so wild speculation on my part but

1130
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:54,720
obviously if you're looking for

1131
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:58,160
nuclear sites you do have to do

1132
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,319
some kind of scan of everything that's

1133
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:02,800
emitting radiation to characterize

1134
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:07,280
what type it is and so

1135
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:10,400
the suggestion might be they scan

1136
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:13,359
all sites and then focus on those

1137
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:15,520
related to weapons

1138
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:18,400
well you know so the first testing was

1139
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:20,560
back in 1945

1140
00:45:25,589 --> 00:45:24,000
and uh and as i remember stanton

1141
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:25,599
friedman used to say

1142
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:28,319
uh whoops the kids found the matches and

1143
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:29,280
uh you know that's

1144
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,560
that's uh a possibly a reason i remember

1145
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:34,160
asking robert hastings this

1146
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:37,839
also is uh why do you think they

1147
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:40,800
why do you think they're over the weapon

1148
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:41,520
storage

1149
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:43,200
and and why do you think they're getting

1150
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:45,040
involved and i remember his answer was

1151
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:45,680
something

1152
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:49,280
like uh you know to so we can be

1153
00:45:52,309 --> 00:45:51,040
aware that we could destroy the world or

1154
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:52,319
something like that i mean

1155
00:45:56,950 --> 00:45:55,200
it's all just speculation all of it is

1156
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:56,960
but uh what are your thoughts on

1157
00:46:01,670 --> 00:45:59,680
the possibilities of why these things

1158
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:01,680
are concentrated

1159
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,720
well back to the cultural anthropology

1160
00:46:09,109 --> 00:46:07,359
that we talked before if you really

1161
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,119
if you're if i'm interested in

1162
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:11,200
characterizing any culture

1163
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:13,119
obviously there are different aspects i

1164
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,000
looked at but technology

1165
00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:18,400
is one of the most obvious where what

1166
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:20,560
level of technology development do they

1167
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:21,040
have

1168
00:46:28,470 --> 00:46:24,800
and obviously nuclear reactions

1169
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:28,480
represent one of the most significant

1170
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:31,200
move transition points that you could

1171
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:32,000
possibly have

1172
00:46:37,910 --> 00:46:35,599
it's a tipping point and i i think

1173
00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:37,920
for anyone who's been a long time reader

1174
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:40,160
of science fiction that's the tipping

1175
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:41,599
point that's probably

1176
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:43,920
more discussed in terms of cultural

1177
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:47,200
development than anything else you know

1178
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:50,000
it's always which way is the which way

1179
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:51,520
is the race going to go

1180
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,640
once they develop nuclear power are they

1181
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:56,319
going to control it are they going to

1182
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:57,520
use it

1183
00:47:01,030 --> 00:47:00,400
and you know that's part of the direct

1184
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,040
you know the

1185
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:03,520
the successor to the drake equation is

1186
00:47:06,069 --> 00:47:05,280
why don't we find more evidence of

1187
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:06,079
intelligence

1188
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,000
and the downside might be well uh

1189
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:12,240
they learned how to do it and didn't do

1190
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:13,200
it well

1191
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:16,240
um and that kind of blows away the great

1192
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:17,040
equation

1193
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:20,079
um so but

1194
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:23,760
my view to if if there is someone

1195
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:26,319
from someone else monitoring cultural

1196
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:27,280
development

1197
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:30,400
that would be an obvious place to look

1198
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,920
and the thing i think the thing that

1199
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:34,400
strikes me is you can monitor

1200
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,520
cultural development just by doing

1201
00:47:43,829 --> 00:47:42,000
periodic checks i mean quite frankly

1202
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:43,839
that's the way anthropologists work you

1203
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:44,960
don't have to be

1204
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:46,480
there all the time you have

1205
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:48,720
anthropologists go in over periods of

1206
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:51,200
time and try to

1207
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,119
assess the culture and then you look at

1208
00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:55,119
the history but if

1209
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:57,200
if you're looking at technology

1210
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,240
obviously

1211
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:00,480
two points are real tipping points in

1212
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:02,640
terms of acceleration

1213
00:48:07,190 --> 00:48:05,760
one is the production of electricity if

1214
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:07,200
you've got that you know

1215
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:09,680
things are going to accelerate very

1216
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:10,880
quickly

1217
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:13,920
once you are generating controlled

1218
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,599
nuclear reactions

1219
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:17,920
they're going to accelerate even more

1220
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:18,720
quickly

1221
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:21,440
so what i would expect to see is once

1222
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:23,520
you hit that nuclear reaction tipping

1223
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,240
point

1224
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,640
there's a lot more concerted interest

1225
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:29,119
over a short period of time

1226
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:31,440
and then they do an assessment and they

1227
00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:32,800
may back off

1228
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:36,000
but there's going to be a real a real

1229
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:36,800
focus

1230
00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:39,280
and to some extent again speculation but

1231
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:40,559
it appears that

1232
00:48:44,589 --> 00:48:42,640
to me that's what we saw in the period

1233
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:44,599
of 1944 through

1234
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,880
1954. um and one of the things you know

1235
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,800
we have a real problem with

1236
00:48:54,230 --> 00:48:52,800
um because of the half-life and

1237
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,240
everything is waste

1238
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:56,319
you know nuclear waste is a major issue

1239
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:59,680
and you know for our 100 years of use

1240
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:01,599
people are going to have to protect the

1241
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:02,880
nuclear waste for

1242
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,559
you know hundreds of thousands of years

1243
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:06,720
which is kind of ridiculous and selfish

1244
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:07,520
i think

1245
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:10,720
but i mean any any of your research have

1246
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:11,920
anything to do with the

1247
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:15,040
byproducts of nuclear um

1248
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:17,760
yes interestingly enough um and

1249
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:19,359
something there's been some excellent

1250
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,559
papers written on

1251
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:22,880
this that i cite in the book they don't

1252
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:23,920
get talked about

1253
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:27,440
much but the nuclear testing uh

1254
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:29,599
we talked a lot about for example

1255
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:31,200
missile sites or that sort of but

1256
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:31,839
there's

1257
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:35,359
that would indicate

1258
00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:38,480
ufos were very interested in tracking

1259
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,800
the early atomic tests both in the south

1260
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:43,119
pacific and in nevada

1261
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:46,800
and not just tracking the

1262
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:50,640
explosion but tracking the clouds

1263
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:54,160
of radiation because you you find

1264
00:49:58,549 --> 00:49:57,040
ufos it's almost as if these things were

1265
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:58,559
monitoring

1266
00:50:02,470 --> 00:50:00,960
how much and how much radiation was

1267
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:02,480
drifting where

1268
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,760
and and possibly even you know asking

1269
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:06,480
themselves

1270
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:08,800
question of do these people understand

1271
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:15,349
yeah so yes from that standpoint and

1272
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:18,640
in all honesty that might also explain

1273
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:22,800
what appears to be a fairly low

1274
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,079
frequency monitoring of the radiation

1275
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:29,119
from the power plants uh one thing that

1276
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,200
i would be

1277
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:33,839
would love to see is whether there's any

1278
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:34,559
difference

1279
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:37,920
between ufo incidents at the different

1280
00:50:43,190 --> 00:50:38,960
type of plants

1281
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:43,200
for example france with its

1282
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:47,280
its program of breeder reactors

1283
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:50,160
and reusing nuclear materials and

1284
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:52,400
breeder reactors

1285
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:54,319
is a totally different story than most

1286
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,680
of what we're seeing in

1287
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:57,599
most of the rest of the world as far as

1288
00:51:01,109 --> 00:50:58,880
atomic plants

1289
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:01,119
uh i don't know that anyone's ever done

1290
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:03,119
that kind of study

1291
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:06,640
right right i do recall where i had

1292
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:08,079
as we're having this conversation i do

1293
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:10,319
recall that off

1294
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:13,920
shore there of a plant

1295
00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:15,520
somewhere i can't remember where it was

1296
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:17,599
but there was a sighting

1297
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:21,280
of a uh a craft coming in by by a plant

1298
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,440
where the water was being the cooler

1299
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,040
water was uh

1300
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,680
exchanged out out i don't know how far

1301
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:28,960
out it is or whatever

1302
00:51:32,230 --> 00:51:30,800
but i did hear about that i don't know

1303
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:32,240
maybe

1304
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:33,839
five or six years ago something like

1305
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:35,680
that i don't know if you've heard of

1306
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:36,720
that one in particular

1307
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,119
no that i have not heard of that one but

1308
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:40,880
that makes sense because

1309
00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:42,640
again all you have to do and that sort

1310
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,400
of thing is sampling you don't have to

1311
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,319
be all there all the time you don't have

1312
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:48,160
to generate a lot you just

1313
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:51,359
uh i will say and and it's certainly

1314
00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:53,920
anthropomorphic to a certain extent but

1315
00:52:03,670 --> 00:51:54,400
in

1316
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:03,680
security

1317
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:06,160
to what i see in the terms of

1318
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:07,440
reconnaissance

1319
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:10,880
and surveillance as

1320
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:14,240
as the earth went through its nuclear

1321
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,800
development cycle for example

1322
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:19,280
we know quite well at this point in time

1323
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:21,280
what the united states did

1324
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:24,559
to determine the soviet union's nuclear

1325
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:25,599
capability

1326
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:28,800
both in production and deployment

1327
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:32,640
uh we then did the same thing to china

1328
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:34,800
we then did the same thing to north

1329
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:35,680
korea

1330
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:37,839
and it's very interesting to map the

1331
00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:40,480
collection techniques that we used

1332
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:44,079
back into the 1940s and 1950s

1333
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:47,119
and and to so large extent they're quite

1334
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:49,200
comparable

1335
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:52,079
isn't that something that's amazing the

1336
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:53,280
similarities

1337
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:56,160
um we're about three minutes we're gonna

1338
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:58,160
uh or less we're going to be going into

1339
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,880
break

1340
00:53:02,069 --> 00:53:00,720
um so we want to make sure when we come

1341
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:02,079
back we'll continue

1342
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:05,920
uh whatever topic we leave off on um

1343
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:08,480
so do do you think you're going to

1344
00:53:11,750 --> 00:53:09,520
actually have a

1345
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,760
a book do you think you'll have enough

1346
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:13,680
information to have a book

1347
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:17,119
eventually about this nuclear

1348
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:21,520
relation and ufos i i truly hope so if

1349
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:22,800
we can get these

1350
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:25,040
if we can conclude the studies that we

1351
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:28,559
have underway now i think i could do

1352
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:31,280
essentially do it another edition of an

1353
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:32,240
identified

1354
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:35,359
which would examine and

1355
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,559
with data and numbers and and the whole

1356
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:41,280
the whole question that would be ask the

1357
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:42,880
question that we're asking in the study

1358
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:43,920
is

1359
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:48,000
complex

1360
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:52,000
anomalous it does it is it like the rest

1361
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,760
of the ufo sightings

1362
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:55,760
one of the tools we use quite frankly

1363
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:58,160
for control purposes we're using is ufo

1364
00:54:04,069 --> 00:53:58,960
cat

1365
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:04,079
gigantic collection

1366
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:07,599
of incidents the downside is

1367
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:10,640
they're of widely differing quality

1368
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:12,800
you know so you have to wrestle with

1369
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:14,240
that but at least it gives you a

1370
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:15,119
baseline so

1371
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:18,160
i can say if i can look at three or four

1372
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:18,800
places

1373
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,160
in washington state on ufo cad

1374
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:24,960
and plot the incidents and then look at

1375
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:26,079
hanford

1376
00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:29,520
and plot the incidents both in time and

1377
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:30,720
frequency

1378
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:34,319
then i have at least a feeling

1379
00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:36,880
that something may or may not be

1380
00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:39,920
anomalous about the incidents at hanford

1381
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:42,480
so yeah i think when we finish the work

1382
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:44,000
another thing frankly

1383
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:46,240
i want to do i don't know if the data

1384
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:48,000
will allow me to do

1385
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:51,280
i subjectively i have an impression that

1386
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:52,880
ufos

1387
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:56,160
over the atomic warfare complex were

1388
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:57,680
more

1389
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:00,880
evasive in other words they didn't

1390
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:03,839
allow aircraft to approach them closely

1391
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:05,599
they didn't allow themselves to be

1392
00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:06,079
observed

1393
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:08,559
in daylight when they were tracked by

1394
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:09,200
radar

1395
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:12,160
they left and that that is different

1396
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:13,200
from

1397
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:16,000
the national population of aircraft

1398
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:16,799
incidents

1399
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:20,559
where quite frankly in the early days

1400
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,839
ufos were not bashful at all

1401
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:25,839
not only did they engage with

1402
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:27,599
interceptors but they would

1403
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:30,000
go out of their way to circle all sorts

1404
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:31,040
of aircraft

1405
00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:34,720
and observe them and interact with them

1406
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:36,799
but i don't think we're going to see

1407
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:39,920
that over the atomic warfare facilities

1408
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:43,119
and if that's true it's it's kind of

1409
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:44,640
significant it's kind of like i

1410
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:47,760
i don't you know i'm i'm gonna let you

1411
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:48,000
see

1412
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:50,000
me all over the place except where i'm

1413
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:51,119
really interested

1414
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:54,319
in well very good well

1415
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:56,000
we need to go into break so hang in

1416
00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:57,680
there everyone over at

1417
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:00,480
uh kgra radio we'll be right back right

1418
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:12,870
uh what would you consider as a person

1419
00:56:16,549 --> 00:56:13,920
qualified to

1420
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,559
interpret what we see well i consider

1421
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:18,400
astronomers

1422
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,680
a genuinely expert in their field

1423
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,359
first of all they have a tremendous

1424
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:25,119
advantage over the other physical

1425
00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:26,480
scientists

1426
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:28,079
and that is that they have powerful

1427
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:30,240
telescopes and photographic equipment

1428
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:31,920
which confront very typically

1429
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:33,760
do astronomical laboratories make any

1430
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:35,599
contribution to the ufo

1431
00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:37,440
in a negative way they do because i've

1432
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:39,599
never received the ufo report from the

1433
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:43,670
well how about the tracking and

1434
00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:45,200
detection facilities of the air force

1435
00:56:48,710 --> 00:56:46,079
itself

1436
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:48,720
how does this go well actually uh to

1437
00:56:51,030 --> 00:56:50,720
begin with the united states air force

1438
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,040
is

1439
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:53,359
charged by an act of congress with the

1440
00:56:56,789 --> 00:56:55,040
air defense of the united states and the

1441
00:56:58,230 --> 00:56:56,799
north american air defense command and

1442
00:57:01,270 --> 00:56:58,240
the air defense command

1443
00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:01,280
have space tracking facilities which are

1444
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:02,640
constantly on the alert

1445
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:04,960
24 hours a day we're interested in

1446
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:07,440
anything that flies in our atmosphere

1447
00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:09,119
well how about ufo reports in other

1448
00:57:14,309 --> 00:57:11,680
countries how are they handled

1449
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,319
actually occur worldwide however the

1450
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,559
united states is the only country in the

1451
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:17,760
world that

1452
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,880
uh places as much emphasis on the

1453
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:22,319
phenomenon

1454
00:57:26,549 --> 00:57:24,400
other countries place a burden of proof

1455
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:26,559
in the observer

1456
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:28,079
that would make your job a lot easier if

1457
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:34,309
thank you colonel parker major clinton

1458
00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:35,839
i would like to close by reading a very

1459
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:37,599
brief excerpt from the report of the air

1460
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:40,079
force's scientific advisory board which

1461
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:40,880
they made

1462
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:42,880
recently upon completing a detailed

1463
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:45,280
review of the subject of ufo

1464
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:47,680
this is a statement the committee

1465
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:50,000
concluded that in the 19 years since the

1466
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,760
first ufo was cited

1467
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:53,440
there has been no evidence that

1468
00:58:07,850 --> 00:57:55,520
unidentified flying objects

1469
00:58:40,990 --> 00:58:07,860
are a threat to our national security

1470
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:41,000
[Music]

1471
00:58:53,990 --> 00:58:45,040
[Laughter]

1472
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:57,190
all right uh here we are back and uh

1473
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:59,760
thanks so much for our guest tonight is

1474
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,040
larry hancock

1475
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:03,680
and we were talking about the ufo

1476
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:04,559
problem

1477
00:59:09,589 --> 00:59:07,119
i'd like to say that and uh weapon

1478
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:09,599
storage and all that i do have a

1479
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:12,720
uh kind of a follow along uh

1480
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:15,440
question or whatever oppenheimer i think

1481
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:16,960
that's how you pronounce his name you

1482
00:59:20,710 --> 00:59:17,440
know he

1483
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:20,720
he thought at the time when

1484
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:22,720
the first test went off that it's

1485
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:24,000
possible i remember

1486
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,440
learning this in high school and i heard

1487
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:27,359
it recently again on

1488
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:30,160
uh some documentary but he actually

1489
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:31,359
thought it could

1490
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:34,880
all the atoms in the entire world could

1491
00:59:38,150 --> 00:59:35,599
split

1492
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:38,160
you know it could continue and he kind

1493
00:59:40,309 --> 00:59:39,680
of held his breath when the first test

1494
00:59:42,870 --> 00:59:40,319
went off

1495
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:42,880
they didn't know they didn't know isn't

1496
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,559
that such a scary thing that they took

1497
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:46,480
that leap to uh

1498
00:59:51,510 --> 00:59:49,680
test the first one they didn't it's

1499
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:51,520
actually interestingly uh i've been

1500
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:53,440
reading a lot about

1501
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:55,680
uh los alamos and those early

1502
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,200
developments and

1503
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,200
and the physics that was involved and

1504
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:01,520
how how they reassured themselves that

1505
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:03,599
they should at least go on and test it i

1506
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:07,599
i one of the fascinating things is that

1507
01:00:11,109 --> 01:00:10,480
there was enough concern so that they

1508
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:11,119
actually

1509
01:00:19,510 --> 01:00:16,480
built this gigantic iron vessel

1510
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:19,520
and the plan was at one point in time

1511
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:20,400
when they were

1512
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:22,960
more and more uncertain about this that

1513
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:25,280
they would conduct the initial explosion

1514
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:28,720
inside this device to contain it

1515
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:32,079
just in case and as it ended up they did

1516
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:34,240
some more calculations and

1517
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:37,520
and were more confident that

1518
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:39,440
that it wasn't going to destroy the

1519
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:41,040
earth but you know there was still a

1520
01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:43,440
percentage and they did not do that but

1521
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,040
at one point that says

1522
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:47,599
it was it was so concerning that they

1523
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:49,119
were actually going to try

1524
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:52,400
a test containment explosion and and

1525
01:01:00,710 --> 01:00:56,480
it's sadly enough it was there were

1526
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:00,720
scientists who died at los alamos

1527
01:01:04,630 --> 01:01:03,680
through essentially tweaking the device

1528
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:04,640
to see how much

1529
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:07,680
radiation would be emitted

1530
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:11,040
called referring to tweaking the

1531
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:12,240
dragon's tail

1532
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,319
and if you made a mistake and admit it

1533
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:16,720
admitted too much radiation it was fatal

1534
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:17,359
so

1535
01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:19,680
it was a very risky thing on a couple of

1536
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:21,599
levels

1537
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:25,040
wow i just

1538
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:27,040
if they try to contain it it just seems

1539
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:28,319
like it would just

1540
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:31,520
make it even more a vicious explosion

1541
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:33,599
you know

1542
01:01:36,870 --> 01:01:36,000
it does i'm not sure that the physicists

1543
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:36,880
were ever

1544
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:40,000
really enamored of that uh you remember

1545
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,480
general gross was an engineer and there

1546
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:44,640
were a lot of times when engineering

1547
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:47,280
collided with the physics

1548
01:01:54,470 --> 01:01:50,640
right right and so they went on to test

1549
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:54,480
and then uh we did have someone

1550
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:57,200
write uh a question about that which you

1551
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:58,880
know i understand

1552
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:01,280
okay there it is right here and don want

1553
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:02,880
to know why did they let the world get

1554
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:03,599
away with

1555
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:05,440
the nuclear weapons test i don't know

1556
01:02:09,750 --> 01:02:07,280
what they would have uh

1557
01:02:10,950 --> 01:02:09,760
they would have done i mean really if

1558
01:02:14,309 --> 01:02:10,960
you think about it

1559
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:14,319
no one was talking about ufo reports

1560
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:18,000
in 1945 19 i mean there

1561
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:20,720
there were there were just incidences

1562
01:02:25,029 --> 01:02:22,000
here and there

1563
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:25,039
but never what you think of as soon as

1564
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:27,039
1947

1565
01:02:33,109 --> 01:02:30,160
sudden

1566
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:33,119
there's uh incident after incident yeah

1567
01:02:38,950 --> 01:02:33,359
and

1568
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:38,960
these things always evolve in an

1569
01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:40,000
iterative fashion

1570
01:02:47,270 --> 01:02:44,160
in 19 in 1947

1571
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:47,280
and even back to 1945

1572
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:49,599
there was a lot of debate as to whether

1573
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:52,720
you could build what was called a super

1574
01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:55,760
a fusion weapon and that took

1575
01:03:00,630 --> 01:02:58,880
some years that was

1576
01:03:01,990 --> 01:03:00,640
if you were looking at the testing that

1577
01:03:04,870 --> 01:03:02,000
was going on and

1578
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:04,880
what was happening there was you know

1579
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:05,200
the

1580
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,520
killers

1581
01:03:17,109 --> 01:03:15,599
it was only when you got into the fusion

1582
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:17,119
class wethermans

1583
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:18,960
and then later on into some of the

1584
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:20,480
things that we didn't build

1585
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:22,720
quite frankly that you were putting the

1586
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:25,280
whole planet at risk

1587
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:29,119
so you if you were looking at this from

1588
01:03:32,549 --> 01:03:30,480
the outside

1589
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:32,559
you would not necessarily have assumed

1590
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:34,640
that that step was going to be taken

1591
01:03:38,789 --> 01:03:37,280
in fact a lot of the scientists at the

1592
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:38,799
time opposed that

1593
01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:41,200
and only a few supported it initially it

1594
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,920
was

1595
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,760
quite frankly when you go into the

1596
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:45,440
history of

1597
01:03:51,510 --> 01:03:48,480
of the adversary relationship between

1598
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:51,520
the u.s and the soviet union

1599
01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:54,720
it was a mirroring process where one

1600
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,319
party felt that they had to build

1601
01:03:59,029 --> 01:03:58,240
something because the other wood built

1602
01:04:02,390 --> 01:03:59,039
it

1603
01:04:04,950 --> 01:04:02,400
that's not

1604
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:04,960
insane but that's that's what really

1605
01:04:07,829 --> 01:04:05,760
happened and

1606
01:04:09,910 --> 01:04:07,839
nobody ever planned all of this and i'm

1607
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:09,920
not even even sure that it would have

1608
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:12,240
been anticipated that it would happen

1609
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:15,760
but if if they were monitoring i think

1610
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:17,359
that's why the monitoring would have

1611
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:20,160
been so intense during those first

1612
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:22,720
five to eight years because that's when

1613
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:23,280
that step

1614
01:04:27,109 --> 01:04:25,520
is either going to be taken or it's not

1615
01:04:28,069 --> 01:04:27,119
going to be taken if you look at the

1616
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:28,079
history of

1617
01:04:32,230 --> 01:04:31,200
of weapons control i mean there there

1618
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:32,240
could have been

1619
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:35,920
actual global nuclear weapons

1620
01:04:43,270 --> 01:04:38,960
control within the first few

1621
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:43,280
post-war years that happened it didn't

1622
01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:45,760
yeah unfortunately now i think we can

1623
01:04:48,069 --> 01:04:46,720
blow ourselves up

1624
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:48,079
i forget how many times i don't want to

1625
01:04:53,670 --> 01:04:49,839
know

1626
01:04:57,270 --> 01:04:53,680
that's a lot at the worst the worst case

1627
01:05:00,870 --> 01:04:57,280
there were 20 000 fusion

1628
01:05:04,069 --> 01:05:00,880
level strategic weapons 20

1629
01:05:06,630 --> 01:05:04,079
000 yes more than 10 000

1630
01:05:08,150 --> 01:05:06,640
in the u.s more than 10 000 in the

1631
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:08,160
soviet union it's

1632
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:11,280
it's insane in fact it's so insane and i

1633
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:13,599
this i developed all of this in the book

1634
01:05:17,910 --> 01:05:14,640
i referred to

1635
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:17,920
earlier called surprise attack um at the

1636
01:05:22,950 --> 01:05:19,119
end of world war

1637
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:22,960
ii when everybody was concerned that

1638
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:25,760
that stalin might just send the red army

1639
01:05:29,109 --> 01:05:26,400
across

1640
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:29,119
europe which you could easily have done

1641
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:32,160
uh to the channel at least

1642
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:35,200
the u.s prepared a strategic bombing

1643
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:37,119
plan to use to try to

1644
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:40,880
interdict that at that point in time

1645
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:43,440
it was felt that you could really stop

1646
01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:44,400
the

1647
01:05:52,150 --> 01:05:49,760
advance

1648
01:05:53,990 --> 01:05:52,160
and you would need maybe 50 fission

1649
01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:54,000
class weapons

1650
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:57,839
those were the plans

1651
01:06:01,829 --> 01:06:01,039
a few years later when eisenhower was

1652
01:06:04,549 --> 01:06:01,839
elected

1653
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:04,559
and he looked at the stockpile it's like

1654
01:06:12,470 --> 01:06:11,270
what are you going to do with them and

1655
01:06:16,549 --> 01:06:12,480
but yeah

1656
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:16,559
you just it it's it's agonizing because

1657
01:06:21,270 --> 01:06:18,720
there's no use for all those weapons to

1658
01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:21,280
any anything other than

1659
01:06:24,950 --> 01:06:24,079
destroying you know the planet not the

1660
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:24,960
planet but

1661
01:06:28,950 --> 01:06:27,680
uh yeah who's holding the bigger bat

1662
01:06:32,710 --> 01:06:28,960
that type of thing

1663
01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:32,720
um yeah and you know it it's so

1664
01:06:35,829 --> 01:06:35,520
unusual that how the whole thing works i

1665
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:35,839
my

1666
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:39,039
brother-in-law worked um at los alamos

1667
01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:42,160
and uh he was actually um under i forget

1668
01:06:44,829 --> 01:06:43,599
what it was but it had to do with

1669
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:44,839
nuclear

1670
01:06:48,069 --> 01:06:47,599
and so he explained to me how you know

1671
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:48,079
the

1672
01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:50,480
plutonium is unstable and you know how

1673
01:06:54,309 --> 01:06:52,160
you know being forced together

1674
01:06:55,190 --> 01:06:54,319
that's what it does the nuclear bomb is

1675
01:06:58,549 --> 01:06:55,200
a ball that

1676
01:06:59,270 --> 01:06:58,559
closes in on itself and until um it just

1677
01:07:01,990 --> 01:06:59,280
becomes

1678
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:02,000
unstable and it the chain reaction

1679
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:02,720
starts

1680
01:07:06,630 --> 01:07:05,280
it's really up i'm saying in layman's

1681
01:07:07,349 --> 01:07:06,640
term because that's how it was explained

1682
01:07:09,349 --> 01:07:07,359
to me

1683
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,359
but it's uh it is amazing but one of the

1684
01:07:14,069 --> 01:07:11,520
questions i had for you okay so

1685
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:14,079
there there there's obviously some

1686
01:07:17,990 --> 01:07:14,640
attention

1687
01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:18,000
being paid uh by encounters and

1688
01:07:21,990 --> 01:07:20,640
uh ufo sightings when it comes to

1689
01:07:24,630 --> 01:07:22,000
nuclear

1690
01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:24,640
in all different aspects what about

1691
01:07:29,349 --> 01:07:25,599
other weaponry

1692
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:29,359
is it just nuclear

1693
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:33,839
i i see no pattern not only with

1694
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:37,680
i see no pattern over a long term

1695
01:07:41,349 --> 01:07:40,960
other than with not just nuclear but

1696
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:41,359
with

1697
01:07:45,270 --> 01:07:43,520
fusion-class weapons what are referred

1698
01:07:47,190 --> 01:07:45,280
to as strategic weapons

1699
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:47,200
you know initially of course when we

1700
01:07:51,190 --> 01:07:49,280
were just building the fission class

1701
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:51,200
that's where we started with

1702
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:54,000
it was all those nuclear sites but as as

1703
01:07:58,230 --> 01:07:56,079
time went on i mean at one point in time

1704
01:08:01,349 --> 01:07:58,240
i think we had

1705
01:08:02,309 --> 01:08:01,359
again i have the number in the book 8

1706
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:02,319
000

1707
01:08:09,349 --> 01:08:05,520
or more tactical nuclear warheads

1708
01:08:13,549 --> 01:08:09,359
uh and that just means one to five

1709
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:13,559
kilotons i mean we even had uh

1710
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:16,719
anti-aircraft uh two

1711
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:19,440
kiloton weapons it's it's always

1712
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:21,839
fascinating to me it's like okay we had

1713
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,359
a ring of nike hercules anti-aircraft

1714
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:27,520
missiles around new york city

1715
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:30,960
and we were going to launch two megaton

1716
01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:33,679
weapons to knock down soviet bombers who

1717
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:34,960
were going to be

1718
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:37,920
dropping two megaton i mean two sorry

1719
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:39,520
two kelaton weapons on

1720
01:08:43,189 --> 01:08:41,679
new york city sort of like wait a minute

1721
01:08:46,470 --> 01:08:43,199
i brought the bombers down

1722
01:08:48,789 --> 01:08:46,480
but what did i just do to myself um

1723
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:48,799
and we did that so there were there were

1724
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:50,000
nuclear weapons

1725
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:52,880
all over the place in terms of those

1726
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:54,480
smaller

1727
01:09:01,990 --> 01:08:58,239
you know two kiloton class weapons

1728
01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:02,000
there's no pattern of ufo incidents

1729
01:09:05,990 --> 01:09:05,040
over those anti-aircraft sites what is

1730
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:06,000
the difference between

1731
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:09,359
a fusion and nuclear oh they're all

1732
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:10,239
nuclear

1733
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:14,960
much

1734
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:18,960
lower level explosion than fusion

1735
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:21,120
fusion takes you into the millions of

1736
01:09:25,510 --> 01:09:22,799
tons of tnt

1737
01:09:26,390 --> 01:09:25,520
fusion is thousands well fission okay

1738
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:26,400
all right

1739
01:09:31,030 --> 01:09:29,359
um i i think uh yeah i misunderstood

1740
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:31,040
fusion with fission

1741
01:09:34,149 --> 01:09:33,600
i mean the other way around yes but for

1742
01:09:37,189 --> 01:09:34,159
example

1743
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:37,199
i mean there were all sorts of

1744
01:09:41,189 --> 01:09:39,679
air force bases that might have had

1745
01:09:43,269 --> 01:09:41,199
especially in europe might have had

1746
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:43,279
tactical nuclear weapons

1747
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:46,560
mean

1748
01:09:50,229 --> 01:09:48,799
you were talking you had essentially

1749
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:50,239
nuclear hand grit

1750
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:53,759
hand grenades and small satchel type

1751
01:09:59,669 --> 01:09:56,880
uh nuclear again all fission not the

1752
01:10:00,550 --> 01:09:59,679
the mega ton class all over the place

1753
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:00,560
but it's

1754
01:10:05,430 --> 01:10:03,920
it's the air force that's the storage

1755
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:05,440
sites the air force

1756
01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:08,480
uh weapons dumps the bomb dumps that

1757
01:10:13,270 --> 01:10:09,840
contain the strategic

1758
01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:13,280
fusion class weapons the icbms that had

1759
01:10:18,310 --> 01:10:14,880
the fusion class weapons

1760
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:18,320
that's where we see very intrusive

1761
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:20,640
ufo incidents and and when i'm talking

1762
01:10:24,550 --> 01:10:22,000
about truth

1763
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:24,560
i mean it's it's fantastic to think that

1764
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:26,239
at the sac bases

1765
01:10:32,950 --> 01:10:29,679
these things came down and descended

1766
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:32,960
directly over the storage bunkers

1767
01:10:36,550 --> 01:10:35,760
where the fusion weapons were and just

1768
01:10:39,430 --> 01:10:36,560
basically

1769
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:39,440
circled around the storage bunkers and

1770
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:39,760
and

1771
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:42,640
what's fascinating about that is we

1772
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:44,560
could do nothing about it

1773
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:48,239
the the incidents in in albuquerque and

1774
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:49,040
then at the

1775
01:10:55,270 --> 01:10:52,159
bases up in the northern tier states

1776
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:55,280
um the air police there's just

1777
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:57,199
nothing we could ever do they would show

1778
01:11:01,750 --> 01:10:58,719
up they would go away

1779
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,760
and you know actually

1780
01:11:06,550 --> 01:11:04,080
as i write in the book you were almost

1781
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:06,560
hoping that it was a ufo because if it

1782
01:11:10,630 --> 01:11:07,440
wasn't

1783
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:10,640
and if it was russians you just lost

1784
01:11:17,110 --> 01:11:13,920
yeah and you know okay

1785
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:17,120
at minot where the icbm you know if that

1786
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:18,080
was a

1787
01:11:21,430 --> 01:11:20,880
russian spasmets group special forces

1788
01:11:23,510 --> 01:11:21,440
group

1789
01:11:25,830 --> 01:11:23,520
that just demonstrated they can waltz

1790
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:25,840
into wherever they wanted and

1791
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:28,560
then leave whenever they wanted i'm

1792
01:11:32,229 --> 01:11:30,480
going for the ufos it's a much

1793
01:11:35,590 --> 01:11:32,239
preferable choice i think

1794
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:35,600
yeah i have had charles halt

1795
01:11:43,350 --> 01:11:39,679
and other people on from raf bentwaters

1796
01:11:45,830 --> 01:11:43,360
and you know the the there was certainly

1797
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:45,840
a beam shot down over the weapon storage

1798
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:49,679
bunkers there um charles halt himself

1799
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,199
cannot say publicly that there were

1800
01:11:54,870 --> 01:11:52,719
nuclear warheads there

1801
01:11:56,550 --> 01:11:54,880
but uh you know it's pretty pretty well

1802
01:11:59,350 --> 01:11:56,560
known that there was

1803
01:12:01,030 --> 01:11:59,360
um so there's another case did you look

1804
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:01,040
into that one

1805
01:12:04,390 --> 01:12:03,199
yes i haven't and one of the fascinating

1806
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:04,400
things about that and

1807
01:12:07,990 --> 01:12:06,080
but it makes sense when you think about

1808
01:12:09,910 --> 01:12:08,000
it certainly we know

1809
01:12:11,110 --> 01:12:09,920
because of the mission profile for

1810
01:12:15,510 --> 01:12:11,120
bentwaters

1811
01:12:17,830 --> 01:12:15,520
it would have had not strategic nuclear

1812
01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:17,840
weapons but there was a wing of fighter

1813
01:12:22,790 --> 01:12:19,600
bombers based there

1814
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:22,800
what that was tasked with

1815
01:12:28,950 --> 01:12:26,640
um a nuclear mission they would have

1816
01:12:29,669 --> 01:12:28,960
gone against targets in in western

1817
01:12:32,390 --> 01:12:29,679
europe

1818
01:12:33,350 --> 01:12:32,400
um so they were tasked with a nuclear

1819
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:33,360
mission

1820
01:12:37,430 --> 01:12:36,000
at the time of bent waters they were no

1821
01:12:41,590 --> 01:12:37,440
longer there

1822
01:12:44,709 --> 01:12:41,600
now the question is were the bombs there

1823
01:12:47,350 --> 01:12:44,719
and they may not have been but from a

1824
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:47,360
surveillance reconnaissance sites you

1825
01:12:53,030 --> 01:12:47,840
know

1826
01:12:53,990 --> 01:12:53,040
to determine if they were there i've

1827
01:12:57,030 --> 01:12:54,000
actually tracked an

1828
01:13:00,390 --> 01:12:57,040
incident in new mexico

1829
01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:00,400
where a b-57 bomber wing

1830
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:02,960
that had been tasked with nuclear

1831
01:13:06,870 --> 01:13:04,400
weapons delivery

1832
01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:06,880
had been moved out of new york state the

1833
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:08,880
planes had been redeployed to

1834
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:12,480
uh new mexico and you have a very low

1835
01:13:15,750 --> 01:13:12,960
level

1836
01:13:16,790 --> 01:13:15,760
incident where somebody is probing that

1837
01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:16,800
base

1838
01:13:21,270 --> 01:13:19,520
and it sort of makes you wonder are they

1839
01:13:22,950 --> 01:13:21,280
do they need to come back and go

1840
01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:22,960
well did they move the bombs to or did

1841
01:13:28,470 --> 01:13:25,120
they just move the air you know

1842
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:28,480
how do how deep does this get how about

1843
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:29,280
that

1844
01:13:35,669 --> 01:13:32,400
now the enola i think the enola gay

1845
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:35,679
um the one that dropped on hiroshima

1846
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:38,800
uh dropped the bomb and hiroshima was

1847
01:13:43,350 --> 01:13:42,719
that was uh nearby roswell wasn't it am

1848
01:13:47,030 --> 01:13:43,360
i getting that

1849
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:47,040
wrong uh you the unit that

1850
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:51,040
that bomb japan was staged off an island

1851
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:51,840
in the pacific

1852
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:55,360
after the war that those there were

1853
01:13:58,470 --> 01:13:58,080
actually only one squadron of what were

1854
01:14:02,390 --> 01:13:58,480
called

1855
01:14:06,630 --> 01:14:02,400
silver plate b-29s which were b35

1856
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:06,640
b-29s that had been specifically carried

1857
01:14:11,270 --> 01:14:09,360
constructed or altered to carry the

1858
01:14:12,310 --> 01:14:11,280
nuclear weapons because the nuclear

1859
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:12,320
weapons were much

1860
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:15,360
bigger that the bomb bays had to be

1861
01:14:18,950 --> 01:14:18,000
redone the dropping mechanisms had to be

1862
01:14:22,709 --> 01:14:18,960
redone

1863
01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:22,719
those bombs were relocated to an air

1864
01:14:26,470 --> 01:14:24,960
sorry not the bombs the aircraft were

1865
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:26,480
relocated to

1866
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:29,600
a base outside of roswell interestingly

1867
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:30,239
enough

1868
01:14:34,070 --> 01:14:32,480
there were never any atomic weapons

1869
01:14:38,189 --> 01:14:34,080
there those

1870
01:14:40,830 --> 01:14:38,199
those aircraft for the first uh

1871
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:40,840
1945 through about

1872
01:14:47,030 --> 01:14:44,080
19 those

1873
01:14:48,870 --> 01:14:47,040
air any aircraft to be equipped to be

1874
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:48,880
loaded with a nuclear bomb

1875
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:51,840
had to fly to albuquerque to kirtland

1876
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:53,280
air force base

1877
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:55,840
and be loaded and then sent off on a

1878
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:58,159
mission whether it was for testing

1879
01:15:03,270 --> 01:15:01,199
or an operational deployment all the

1880
01:15:03,990 --> 01:15:03,280
bombs up to that point in time were in

1881
01:15:07,990 --> 01:15:04,000
storage

1882
01:15:09,669 --> 01:15:08,000
at the sandia manzano weapons complex in

1883
01:15:12,070 --> 01:15:09,679
albuquerque which is

1884
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:12,080
quite frankly why albuquerque has one of

1885
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:12,800
the most

1886
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:15,440
i won't say why it has what it appears

1887
01:15:20,630 --> 01:15:17,120
that it might have had

1888
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:20,640
one of the most intense

1889
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:23,760
series of ufo incidents specifically

1890
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:25,199
over those bases

1891
01:15:33,750 --> 01:15:30,080
uh sandia paul benoit

1892
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:33,760
yeah yeah because for three years that's

1893
01:15:36,790 --> 01:15:35,840
that's where all the bombs were

1894
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:36,800
assembled

1895
01:15:43,110 --> 01:15:40,400
and that's where they were stockpiled

1896
01:15:44,470 --> 01:15:43,120
um you i'm sure you know quite a bit

1897
01:15:48,630 --> 01:15:44,480
about the paul bennowitz

1898
01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:48,640
you know situation back and uh at sandia

1899
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:51,520
was it is it is that that was it that

1900
01:15:55,430 --> 01:15:53,280
place right there

1901
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:55,440
oh that's why you got the book project

1902
01:15:59,110 --> 01:15:56,320
beta

1903
01:16:00,630 --> 01:15:59,120
which is an excellent excellent book um

1904
01:16:02,390 --> 01:16:00,640
that was uh wasn't that great that was

1905
01:16:02,870 --> 01:16:02,400
great bishop he was just on a few weeks

1906
01:16:06,550 --> 01:16:02,880
ago

1907
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:06,560
yes excellent research yes

1908
01:16:10,790 --> 01:16:09,760
that was that is sandia base one of the

1909
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:10,800
problems

1910
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:12,719
of figuring out what's going on sandia

1911
01:16:17,590 --> 01:16:14,320
base is sandia has

1912
01:16:20,790 --> 01:16:17,600
hosted a great number of different types

1913
01:16:21,669 --> 01:16:20,800
of weapons development activities over

1914
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:21,679
the years it's

1915
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:25,520
it's always had some association with

1916
01:16:29,350 --> 01:16:27,600
nuclear weapons i remember i

1917
01:16:32,870 --> 01:16:29,360
i graduated from the university of

1918
01:16:35,990 --> 01:16:32,880
mexico and took a class in

1919
01:16:37,750 --> 01:16:36,000
basic atomics uh and we went out to

1920
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:37,760
to the base and they gave us a cheer i

1921
01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:39,840
was i was much impressed because we

1922
01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:41,440
started walking around one of the

1923
01:16:45,189 --> 01:16:42,880
research labs

1924
01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:45,199
and kept wondering why the floor was so

1925
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:46,000
bumpy

1926
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:49,440
and it's like why why is this tile floor

1927
01:16:51,750 --> 01:16:50,320
two foot high

1928
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:51,760
and they would say well that's because

1929
01:16:55,189 --> 01:16:53,920
somebody spilled some radioactive

1930
01:16:58,550 --> 01:16:55,199
material there

1931
01:16:59,590 --> 01:16:58,560
and we had to we had to pour lead on top

1932
01:17:02,070 --> 01:16:59,600
of it

1933
01:17:02,790 --> 01:17:02,080
oh wow yeah that's one way to take care

1934
01:17:04,390 --> 01:17:02,800
of it

1935
01:17:05,830 --> 01:17:04,400
you never know if somebody's pulling

1936
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:05,840
your leg but it's like

1937
01:17:10,070 --> 01:17:08,640
okay maybe the tile's just coming up and

1938
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:10,080
that's a good story but

1939
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:13,440
yeah certainly got your attention

1940
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:15,520
uh if they were looking for safety yeah

1941
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:19,120
you bet i'll do whatever you tell me

1942
01:17:25,110 --> 01:17:22,880
but sandia base its mission

1943
01:17:26,790 --> 01:17:25,120
changed over the years in the first

1944
01:17:30,470 --> 01:17:26,800
years it was

1945
01:17:33,350 --> 01:17:30,480
an assembly base a storage compound

1946
01:17:34,950 --> 01:17:33,360
uh then it was the transfer point where

1947
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:34,960
all the bombs were

1948
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:37,280
offloaded that went to both the south

1949
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:40,239
pacific and to nevada for the testing

1950
01:17:44,149 --> 01:17:43,440
it was never an operational sac base it

1951
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,159
was a

1952
01:17:49,510 --> 01:17:46,560
logistics base and then after a certain

1953
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:49,520
point they started moving all the

1954
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:51,520
most many of the weapons out to field

1955
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:53,760
locations

1956
01:17:57,350 --> 01:17:56,800
but by the time of the benowitz era

1957
01:18:00,390 --> 01:17:57,360
there was

1958
01:18:01,030 --> 01:18:00,400
a lot of other testing that was going on

1959
01:18:02,630 --> 01:18:01,040
there

1960
01:18:04,070 --> 01:18:02,640
having to do with the star wars

1961
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:04,080
initiative

1962
01:18:08,070 --> 01:18:06,960
having to do with things ranging from

1963
01:18:11,270 --> 01:18:08,080
stealth

1964
01:18:14,390 --> 01:18:11,280
to adaptive optics

1965
01:18:16,390 --> 01:18:14,400
for satellite surveillance and and which

1966
01:18:17,350 --> 01:18:16,400
involves sending out coherent light

1967
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:17,360
beams

1968
01:18:23,270 --> 01:18:20,800
uh and of course all that testing

1969
01:18:24,950 --> 01:18:23,280
was done at night because it's kind of

1970
01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:24,960
like area 51

1971
01:18:29,350 --> 01:18:27,760
you know that the other folks know where

1972
01:18:31,910 --> 01:18:29,360
you're doing these tests and

1973
01:18:33,189 --> 01:18:31,920
you either do it in the dark or you try

1974
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:33,199
to frustrate their

1975
01:18:36,310 --> 01:18:35,280
satellite collections to some extent if

1976
01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:36,320
you can

1977
01:18:43,430 --> 01:18:39,760
um but so there was if you're asking

1978
01:18:45,030 --> 01:18:43,440
that is the sandia base it's just that

1979
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:45,040
when you're talking about what was going

1980
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:46,960
on at sandia you have to be pretty

1981
01:18:53,990 --> 01:18:53,430
um my i mentioned earlier that my

1982
01:18:56,790 --> 01:18:54,000
brother-in-law

1983
01:18:57,669 --> 01:18:56,800
worked at los alamos and they're very

1984
01:19:00,950 --> 01:18:57,679
involved with

1985
01:19:03,270 --> 01:19:00,960
things nuclear there um have

1986
01:19:05,350 --> 01:19:03,280
have people reported are you aware of if

1987
01:19:09,030 --> 01:19:05,360
people have reported

1988
01:19:12,149 --> 01:19:09,040
uh sightings over the labs there

1989
01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:12,159
at the from the well actually not only

1990
01:19:14,709 --> 01:19:14,239
have they reported sightings and i cover

1991
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:14,719
this at

1992
01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:18,320
a pretty great length in the the book um

1993
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:22,080
los alamos after basically after

1994
01:19:27,270 --> 01:19:25,440
hanford and oak ridge los alamos

1995
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:27,280
did assemble the first weapons for

1996
01:19:31,110 --> 01:19:29,760
testing and did a lot of the design and

1997
01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:31,120
development work so

1998
01:19:35,430 --> 01:19:33,920
if you had the capability to track

1999
01:19:38,229 --> 01:19:35,440
atomic materials

2000
01:19:39,189 --> 01:19:38,239
to radiate radioactive productions if

2001
01:19:42,390 --> 01:19:39,199
you're

2002
01:19:43,110 --> 01:19:42,400
tracking u-238 or plutonium what you

2003
01:19:46,310 --> 01:19:43,120
notice

2004
01:19:48,870 --> 01:19:46,320
is that it's going to los alamos okay

2005
01:19:49,350 --> 01:19:48,880
so as that begins to happen there was a

2006
01:19:53,030 --> 01:19:49,360
whole

2007
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:53,040
there was a host of ufo incidents

2008
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:56,159
in and around los alamos so much

2009
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:00,480
so that when the air force essentially

2010
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:03,760
refused to take it seriously a number of

2011
01:20:08,830 --> 01:20:05,360
scientists

2012
01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:08,840
from los alamos set up their own

2013
01:20:13,590 --> 01:20:11,760
investigations unit and received the

2014
01:20:15,030 --> 01:20:13,600
authority to use some of the equipment

2015
01:20:18,310 --> 01:20:15,040
out of their labs

2016
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:18,320
wow and and did some of the very first

2017
01:20:22,629 --> 01:20:19,679
correlation

2018
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:22,639
of uf overflow ufo overflights to

2019
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:24,880
radiation detection

2020
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:27,920
uh there were only been three places

2021
01:20:32,310 --> 01:20:28,800
where that was

2022
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:32,320
attempted uh with any kind of

2023
01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:35,440
structure one was at los alamos

2024
01:20:41,110 --> 01:20:38,719
and and it was verified repeatedly

2025
01:20:41,910 --> 01:20:41,120
when ufos passed over there was an

2026
01:20:44,629 --> 01:20:41,920
increase in

2027
01:20:45,110 --> 01:20:44,639
incident radiation the same thing was

2028
01:20:48,229 --> 01:20:45,120
done at

2029
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:48,239
oak ridge and strangely enough

2030
01:20:52,149 --> 01:20:50,159
another incident of the same nature

2031
01:20:54,629 --> 01:20:52,159
nature occurred at palomar

2032
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:54,639
which is a totally different story and

2033
01:21:00,550 --> 01:20:56,719
was a one-time one-off event

2034
01:21:02,390 --> 01:21:00,560
but it was repetitive at both los alamos

2035
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:02,400
and at oak ridge

2036
01:21:05,750 --> 01:21:05,199
well what is uh what is palomar what

2037
01:21:08,470 --> 01:21:05,760
i've heard

2038
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:08,480
oh they've heard the observatory oh oh

2039
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:09,760
okay that's where i heard of that

2040
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,880
yeah and the only only reason the only

2041
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:15,040
reason it observed there is

2042
01:21:20,550 --> 01:21:18,239
as you can imagine you're they happen to

2043
01:21:23,669 --> 01:21:20,560
be running a series of exp

2044
01:21:28,229 --> 01:21:23,679
experiments for the navy on

2045
01:21:29,910 --> 01:21:28,239
uh and radioactive detection for various

2046
01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:29,920
reasons i won't go into that but

2047
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:31,679
they just happen to have the equipment

2048
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:33,840
set up and

2049
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:37,120
it just happened to register

2050
01:21:44,390 --> 01:21:41,120
this when uh ufo passed over

2051
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:44,400
but generally those sorts of radiation

2052
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:46,880
detectors were not set up over the place

2053
01:21:50,550 --> 01:21:49,920
they were set up at los alamos and oak

2054
01:21:52,709 --> 01:21:50,560
ridge

2055
01:21:54,629 --> 01:21:52,719
because they were concerned about any

2056
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:54,639
spike in radiation

2057
01:21:58,470 --> 01:21:56,719
that they couldn't explain because it

2058
01:22:00,870 --> 01:21:58,480
was suggested that they might have had a

2059
01:22:04,390 --> 01:22:00,880
materials leak or an accident

2060
01:22:04,870 --> 01:22:04,400
or whatever and so that was particularly

2061
01:22:08,070 --> 01:22:04,880
true

2062
01:22:10,070 --> 01:22:08,080
at oak ridge and the

2063
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:10,080
the people at oak ridge actually

2064
01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:11,440
proposed

2065
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:15,280
to the air force to set up and conduct

2066
01:22:19,350 --> 01:22:17,520
a very structured experimental

2067
01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:19,360
collection to prove

2068
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:21,520
that their radiation spikes were coming

2069
01:22:24,950 --> 01:22:24,080
from the ufos that they were seeing pass

2070
01:22:27,830 --> 01:22:24,960
over

2071
01:22:28,629 --> 01:22:27,840
and the air force just that was during

2072
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:28,639
the grudge

2073
01:22:32,470 --> 01:22:30,800
era of air force intelligence and they

2074
01:22:33,590 --> 01:22:32,480
just didn't want to hear it

2075
01:22:35,830 --> 01:22:33,600
i don't know if you were listening

2076
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:35,840
during the break when the

2077
01:22:39,669 --> 01:22:39,120
uh the project blue book um was being

2078
01:22:43,430 --> 01:22:39,679
interviewed

2079
01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:43,440
and and uh the question was you know who

2080
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:45,040
are your good observers and

2081
01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:47,280
he said well i would think that the best

2082
01:22:53,510 --> 01:22:49,199
observers would be astronomers and

2083
01:22:55,350 --> 01:22:53,520
we haven't had one single astronomer

2084
01:22:56,790 --> 01:22:55,360
you know report anything from any

2085
01:22:58,550 --> 01:22:56,800
observatory

2086
01:22:59,830 --> 01:22:58,560
and you think about it observatories

2087
01:23:01,270 --> 01:22:59,840
they're looking at you know

2088
01:23:03,590 --> 01:23:01,280
trying to look at planets but looking at

2089
01:23:05,270 --> 01:23:03,600
stars way way out there why would they

2090
01:23:08,629 --> 01:23:05,280
see a little teeny tiny

2091
01:23:11,590 --> 01:23:08,639
you know ufo if they're looking like

2092
01:23:12,550 --> 01:23:11,600
light years away yeah what i would have

2093
01:23:15,110 --> 01:23:12,560
loved to have done

2094
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:15,120
just after he said that was to put up

2095
01:23:20,149 --> 01:23:16,560
the document

2096
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:20,159
that heineck did because actually for

2097
01:23:24,310 --> 01:23:23,040
project sign heineck was asked

2098
01:23:26,470 --> 01:23:24,320
volunteered to

2099
01:23:27,669 --> 01:23:26,480
and was asked to go out and essentially

2100
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:27,679
do a

2101
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:30,880
covert survey of astronomers to find out

2102
01:23:34,390 --> 01:23:32,880
who believed and who had seen and so on

2103
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:34,400
and so forth and he

2104
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:37,679
he did interview i i think

2105
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:40,159
50 or 60 astronomers and basically or

2106
01:23:43,830 --> 01:23:41,760
more and he made a report

2107
01:23:45,270 --> 01:23:43,840
we actually have that report back now i

2108
01:23:47,910 --> 01:23:45,280
mentioned it in the book

2109
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:47,920
um and what he found out was that there

2110
01:23:52,709 --> 01:23:49,760
were a number of astronomers

2111
01:23:54,070 --> 01:23:52,719
who had seen ufos that that they

2112
01:23:56,149 --> 01:23:54,080
couldn't explain

2113
01:23:57,990 --> 01:23:56,159
there were another number of astronomers

2114
01:24:01,270 --> 01:23:58,000
that were very interested them

2115
01:24:02,070 --> 01:24:01,280
but to a person they said that it would

2116
01:24:04,310 --> 01:24:02,080
absolutely

2117
01:24:05,430 --> 01:24:04,320
kill their careers if they even

2118
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:05,440
acknowledged that

2119
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:07,120
and the only reason they would admit it

2120
01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:09,360
to him was he was another professional

2121
01:24:13,830 --> 01:24:10,560
astronomer

2122
01:24:15,830 --> 01:24:13,840
so i think if you if you kind of

2123
01:24:18,149 --> 01:24:15,840
distributed that memo where those nice

2124
01:24:21,669 --> 01:24:18,159
air force folks were talking it would

2125
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:21,679
probably undercut their proposition

2126
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,480
yes um i'm i'm texting alejandro right

2127
01:24:29,430 --> 01:24:26,159
now because i know he wrote a

2128
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,440
a blog on that you know basically called

2129
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:31,199
astronomers and ufos i was just looking

2130
01:24:35,990 --> 01:24:33,040
forward to see if i could pull that up

2131
01:24:37,110 --> 01:24:36,000
i could actually uh share that and i

2132
01:24:38,950 --> 01:24:37,120
remember when i

2133
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:38,960
started doing the show right off the bat

2134
01:24:42,950 --> 01:24:40,560
early on um

2135
01:24:44,790 --> 01:24:42,960
in like 2012 or something like that i

2136
01:24:47,510 --> 01:24:44,800
was contacted by

2137
01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:47,520
a really nice gent he was involved in

2138
01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:49,120
the show for a little while

2139
01:24:52,229 --> 01:24:51,040
um but he passed away unfortunately but

2140
01:24:55,590 --> 01:24:52,239
he was a

2141
01:24:57,110 --> 01:24:55,600
amateur astronomer and he talks about

2142
01:24:59,430 --> 01:24:57,120
being out in the field

2143
01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:59,440
his story was he was out in the field

2144
01:25:02,310 --> 01:25:00,719
and he was

2145
01:25:04,310 --> 01:25:02,320
you know done for the night and walking

2146
01:25:05,910 --> 01:25:04,320
with his telescope over his shoulder

2147
01:25:09,270 --> 01:25:05,920
and he said all of a sudden this big

2148
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:09,280
huge triangle looked like a mile wide

2149
01:25:12,310 --> 01:25:11,600
glided right over him without a sound

2150
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:12,320
and so

2151
01:25:15,830 --> 01:25:14,320
he he started a website i forget what it

2152
01:25:16,790 --> 01:25:15,840
was called but it was something about

2153
01:25:19,830 --> 01:25:16,800
astronomer

2154
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:19,840
like that you know he was an

2155
01:25:23,990 --> 01:25:21,760
amateur astronomer but he was he was

2156
01:25:24,790 --> 01:25:24,000
very involved he was on radio shows and

2157
01:25:27,750 --> 01:25:24,800
things

2158
01:25:29,350 --> 01:25:27,760
there's an excellent book and i didn't

2159
01:25:31,110 --> 01:25:29,360
pull it so i can't grab it it's on the

2160
01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:31,120
shelf back there about a

2161
01:25:36,470 --> 01:25:34,800
uh as an astronomer at well he was

2162
01:25:38,870 --> 01:25:36,480
teaching astronomy

2163
01:25:40,310 --> 01:25:38,880
at the university of a university in

2164
01:25:43,669 --> 01:25:40,320
missouri

2165
01:25:46,790 --> 01:25:43,679
and they had a ufo wave

2166
01:25:48,550 --> 01:25:46,800
in southeastern missouri and he actually

2167
01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:48,560
managed to convince his university to

2168
01:25:53,189 --> 01:25:50,800
let him put together a team

2169
01:25:56,229 --> 01:25:53,199
use some of the equipment and went out

2170
01:25:59,750 --> 01:25:56,239
and made a series of observations over

2171
01:26:02,629 --> 01:25:59,760
a couple of years and uh

2172
01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:02,639
one of the problems was that course most

2173
01:26:06,790 --> 01:26:03,920
of that was at night

2174
01:26:08,310 --> 01:26:06,800
and nighttime ufo observations are one

2175
01:26:12,790 --> 01:26:08,320
of the most difficult

2176
01:26:16,390 --> 01:26:12,800
to track and capture and quantify

2177
01:26:19,189 --> 01:26:16,400
just terribly challenging but

2178
01:26:21,030 --> 01:26:19,199
he reports all of that in the book but

2179
01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:21,040
to correspond to your point

2180
01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:23,760
the one that he did see up close is when

2181
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:25,040
they were out setting up

2182
01:26:29,270 --> 01:26:27,120
equipment and while they were setting up

2183
01:26:29,990 --> 01:26:29,280
equipment he happened to look over his

2184
01:26:33,189 --> 01:26:30,000
shoulder

2185
01:26:36,310 --> 01:26:33,199
and he saw this gigantic delta fly

2186
01:26:39,270 --> 01:26:36,320
over at about 100 feet up in the air

2187
01:26:40,470 --> 01:26:39,280
so close that the a series of what

2188
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:40,480
appeared to be

2189
01:26:43,830 --> 01:26:42,400
tail lights or something that would look

2190
01:26:46,390 --> 01:26:43,840
like tail lights

2191
01:26:48,149 --> 01:26:46,400
were visible on the rear of the craft

2192
01:26:48,790 --> 01:26:48,159
and they were so visible that you could

2193
01:26:50,950 --> 01:26:48,800
even see

2194
01:26:52,470 --> 01:26:50,960
that they were striated and you could

2195
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:52,480
see the shape to them

2196
01:26:57,270 --> 01:26:54,560
but that's very much in line with what

2197
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:57,280
you were saying it's an excellent book

2198
01:27:00,629 --> 01:26:59,520
what year approximately was that do you

2199
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:00,639
remember

2200
01:27:08,550 --> 01:27:05,120
i think that would have been in the 80s

2201
01:27:10,149 --> 01:27:08,560
if i recall late 70s early 80s

2202
01:27:12,149 --> 01:27:10,159
that's another big question mark you

2203
01:27:13,030 --> 01:27:12,159
know i've had dave marlar on a bunch of

2204
01:27:16,709 --> 01:27:13,040
times and

2205
01:27:18,790 --> 01:27:16,719
he talks about you know the

2206
01:27:20,709 --> 01:27:18,800
the triangle ufo you know was his the

2207
01:27:24,070 --> 01:27:20,719
feature of the book he did

2208
01:27:27,350 --> 01:27:24,080
um and i'm going to pull up that article

2209
01:27:30,390 --> 01:27:27,360
uh of just to bring it up

2210
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:30,400
so people can see it um on

2211
01:27:34,229 --> 01:27:32,639
on what alejandro wrote about that topic

2212
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:34,239
which is really interesting

2213
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:39,360
um but uh

2214
01:27:43,590 --> 01:27:41,199
oh god i can't believe i just lost my

2215
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:43,600
train of thought

2216
01:27:49,350 --> 01:27:46,880
trying to get this article up here um

2217
01:27:51,590 --> 01:27:49,360
well just to comment another piece of

2218
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:51,600
research i'm engaged in at the moment

2219
01:27:57,430 --> 01:27:55,360
uh with uh another

2220
01:27:59,350 --> 01:27:57,440
individual from scu is we're looking at

2221
01:28:01,350 --> 01:27:59,360
the characteristics

2222
01:28:03,350 --> 01:28:01,360
both the flight characteristics and the

2223
01:28:06,709 --> 01:28:03,360
physical characteristics

2224
01:28:10,629 --> 01:28:06,719
of ufos that are seen at

2225
01:28:13,270 --> 01:28:10,639
a close enough distance within

2226
01:28:14,950 --> 01:28:13,280
close enough so that you can visually

2227
01:28:17,669 --> 01:28:14,960
observe structure

2228
01:28:19,030 --> 01:28:17,679
and detail to the objects it's it's

2229
01:28:22,629 --> 01:28:19,040
within a mile

2230
01:28:24,629 --> 01:28:22,639
you know and we've been very so

2231
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:24,639
we've gone through thousands and

2232
01:28:27,910 --> 01:28:25,920
thousands of report

2233
01:28:30,070 --> 01:28:27,920
reports and boiled it down to a few

2234
01:28:33,189 --> 01:28:30,080
hundred and we're doing a pattern

2235
01:28:35,910 --> 01:28:33,199
analysis on that to see if there are any

2236
01:28:37,990 --> 01:28:35,920
shifts in shape uh maneuvering

2237
01:28:41,110 --> 01:28:38,000
capability

2238
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:41,120
and there definitely are some trends

2239
01:28:45,189 --> 01:28:43,520
in shape that is really strange and that

2240
01:28:46,390 --> 01:28:45,199
that that was basically the question i

2241
01:28:49,590 --> 01:28:46,400
was going to ask you

2242
01:28:51,750 --> 01:28:49,600
uh because it was in the 1980s and this

2243
01:28:54,149 --> 01:28:51,760
is alejandro's i'll just put that up

2244
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:54,159
um so people can see it as well but so

2245
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:56,320
that was in the 1980s and

2246
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:59,199
you think of the way these things seem

2247
01:29:02,229 --> 01:28:59,760
to

2248
01:29:02,870 --> 01:29:02,239
work out it won't expand any more than

2249
01:29:05,910 --> 01:29:02,880
that

2250
01:29:08,550 --> 01:29:05,920
um but it

2251
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,560
it's it's like there's um a year in a

2252
01:29:13,510 --> 01:29:10,400
model okay there's the discs

2253
01:29:14,950 --> 01:29:13,520
for a while and uh you know that seems

2254
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:14,960
like a popular thing

2255
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:17,840
and then it changes you know uh well a

2256
01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:18,480
lot of times

2257
01:29:21,750 --> 01:29:20,880
i'm not saying it changes directly but

2258
01:29:25,189 --> 01:29:21,760
people are

2259
01:29:27,910 --> 01:29:25,199
we're talking about um you know orbs and

2260
01:29:29,669 --> 01:29:27,920
and uh cigar shape you know the

2261
01:29:33,830 --> 01:29:29,679
different types of objects

2262
01:29:36,629 --> 01:29:33,840
and things along the way and uh

2263
01:29:38,470 --> 01:29:36,639
it is i i would be very interested in

2264
01:29:40,709 --> 01:29:38,480
what you find out when you do that

2265
01:29:42,550 --> 01:29:40,719
that type of study because uh one of the

2266
01:29:45,189 --> 01:29:42,560
things you just mentioned there was

2267
01:29:46,470 --> 01:29:45,199
the maneuverability and i never think

2268
01:29:48,470 --> 01:29:46,480
about anything

2269
01:29:49,990 --> 01:29:48,480
when it comes to that another thing that

2270
01:29:53,669 --> 01:29:50,000
i think is

2271
01:29:55,910 --> 01:29:53,679
a curiosity that people mention

2272
01:29:57,990 --> 01:29:55,920
most of the time they say the same thing

2273
01:30:01,110 --> 01:29:58,000
and with my own sighting as well

2274
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:01,120
is uh no sound at all but then there's

2275
01:30:05,270 --> 01:30:02,400
the high pitched sound

2276
01:30:07,030 --> 01:30:05,280
there's uh you know like the arielle

2277
01:30:08,229 --> 01:30:07,040
school they heard a whistle what sounded

2278
01:30:09,990 --> 01:30:08,239
like a whistle

2279
01:30:11,590 --> 01:30:10,000
um there's the buzzing there's the

2280
01:30:13,590 --> 01:30:11,600
humming uh

2281
01:30:14,709 --> 01:30:13,600
all all the different uh things that

2282
01:30:16,870 --> 01:30:14,719
people hear

2283
01:30:18,870 --> 01:30:16,880
that's another thing and we're we're

2284
01:30:19,590 --> 01:30:18,880
wrestling that with my friend robert

2285
01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:19,600
powell

2286
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:22,800
who i'm working with him on it he has

2287
01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:24,000
created a

2288
01:30:28,470 --> 01:30:25,920
we started out with a spreadsheet that

2289
01:30:30,310 --> 01:30:28,480
had like well 12 columns and i think we

2290
01:30:32,390 --> 01:30:30,320
ended up with a spreadsheet it has 50

2291
01:30:34,550 --> 01:30:32,400
columns or something like that

2292
01:30:36,590 --> 01:30:34,560
and so we're capturing all of those

2293
01:30:39,910 --> 01:30:36,600
effects whether it's

2294
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:39,920
maneuverability acceleration

2295
01:30:46,790 --> 01:30:43,199
shape uh light lighting uh

2296
01:30:48,070 --> 01:30:46,800
sound em effects uh the whole range of

2297
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,080
those things and

2298
01:30:52,550 --> 01:30:50,159
and it it's fascinating with the

2299
01:30:53,270 --> 01:30:52,560
statistical analysis is yet to be done

2300
01:30:54,709 --> 01:30:53,280
but we're

2301
01:30:56,790 --> 01:30:54,719
i think we're going to see some very

2302
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:56,800
interesting things and there

2303
01:31:01,910 --> 01:30:58,480
one there is a there are a couple of

2304
01:31:04,390 --> 01:31:01,920
constants there are always discs disc

2305
01:31:06,070 --> 01:31:04,400
you just the discs never go away at some

2306
01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:06,080
level it's like okay

2307
01:31:09,430 --> 01:31:08,480
whether this is the economy model or

2308
01:31:12,470 --> 01:31:09,440
what this

2309
01:31:14,550 --> 01:31:12,480
is always there um well i saw

2310
01:31:15,590 --> 01:31:14,560
my disc had a pardon me i'll we'll get

2311
01:31:17,830 --> 01:31:15,600
right back to that

2312
01:31:19,669 --> 01:31:17,840
the disc that i saw had a light blue

2313
01:31:21,030 --> 01:31:19,679
glow around it and i heard someone else

2314
01:31:22,790 --> 01:31:21,040
say that once

2315
01:31:24,310 --> 01:31:22,800
i've only heard one other person say

2316
01:31:27,110 --> 01:31:24,320
that

2317
01:31:29,830 --> 01:31:27,120
but anyway glow is uh atmospheric

2318
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:29,840
effects and there are several is is

2319
01:31:33,110 --> 01:31:31,520
definitely that's one that goes with

2320
01:31:35,110 --> 01:31:33,120
them the the lighting

2321
01:31:37,110 --> 01:31:35,120
interestingly enough the lighting

2322
01:31:37,590 --> 01:31:37,120
changes dramatically when you get into

2323
01:31:41,669 --> 01:31:37,600
the back

2324
01:31:44,070 --> 01:31:41,679
black triangles the black deltas

2325
01:31:45,669 --> 01:31:44,080
and then they're like the hudson river

2326
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:45,679
valley

2327
01:31:49,910 --> 01:31:47,760
you never saw those before none of these

2328
01:31:51,430 --> 01:31:49,920
in the 40s none of these in the 50s none

2329
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:51,440
of these in the 60s

2330
01:31:54,790 --> 01:31:53,600
and then suddenly when these things

2331
01:31:57,270 --> 01:31:54,800
start showing up

2332
01:31:59,189 --> 01:31:57,280
in new york near one of the most

2333
01:32:00,550 --> 01:31:59,199
populous cities in the world

2334
01:32:02,310 --> 01:32:00,560
these things are built and they're

2335
01:32:03,110 --> 01:32:02,320
described as like they're like a bridge

2336
01:32:05,270 --> 01:32:03,120
girder

2337
01:32:07,110 --> 01:32:05,280
they're totally non-aerodynamic they've

2338
01:32:08,709 --> 01:32:07,120
got things hanging down all over the

2339
01:32:09,430 --> 01:32:08,719
place they got struts they got

2340
01:32:11,669 --> 01:32:09,440
structures

2341
01:32:12,629 --> 01:32:11,679
and they're gigantic you could not miss

2342
01:32:14,550 --> 01:32:12,639
them

2343
01:32:16,629 --> 01:32:14,560
and you know at some point you begin to

2344
01:32:17,830 --> 01:32:16,639
wonder did they finally just get

2345
01:32:19,830 --> 01:32:17,840
frustrated

2346
01:32:21,669 --> 01:32:19,840
and like you know we've been trying to

2347
01:32:24,470 --> 01:32:21,679
get you people to notice us

2348
01:32:25,030 --> 01:32:24,480
what more do we need to do you know this

2349
01:32:28,550 --> 01:32:25,040
is

2350
01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:28,560
way there's

2351
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:30,400
millions of people and we're here now

2352
01:32:32,629 --> 01:32:31,840
we're not going to go directly over the

2353
01:32:35,110 --> 01:32:32,639
city but we're

2354
01:32:39,030 --> 01:32:35,120
it's just like an intelligence test you

2355
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:40,950
it's amazing yeah i mean i i have a

2356
01:32:43,430 --> 01:32:42,480
friend i've talked about this a few

2357
01:32:47,350 --> 01:32:43,440
times

2358
01:32:48,149 --> 01:32:47,360
where um he he what his sighting was was

2359
01:32:55,189 --> 01:32:48,159
a box

2360
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:55,199
you know every side blinking and it just

2361
01:33:00,709 --> 01:32:55,920
hovered

2362
01:33:03,189 --> 01:33:00,719
below him because he was up

2363
01:33:04,310 --> 01:33:03,199
high in a uh a dormitory 17th floor i

2364
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:04,320
think he said

2365
01:33:08,629 --> 01:33:06,159
and it was like below him and then it

2366
01:33:10,470 --> 01:33:08,639
shot off but i mean a box shape

2367
01:33:11,990 --> 01:33:10,480
and i've heard other people say you know

2368
01:33:13,750 --> 01:33:12,000
these weird

2369
01:33:15,030 --> 01:33:13,760
things but they don't come in trends

2370
01:33:17,510 --> 01:33:15,040
like you said

2371
01:33:19,270 --> 01:33:17,520
you know discs are pretty common or they

2372
01:33:22,790 --> 01:33:19,280
never went away

2373
01:33:26,629 --> 01:33:22,800
but then there's the delta the triangle

2374
01:33:28,790 --> 01:33:26,639
um as lee spiegel when he called uh

2375
01:33:30,390 --> 01:33:28,800
jay allen heineck told him to go

2376
01:33:32,870 --> 01:33:30,400
investigate this

2377
01:33:34,550 --> 01:33:32,880
um i think he said delta and then lee

2378
01:33:38,070 --> 01:33:34,560
spiegel says so i'm going down to look

2379
01:33:40,149 --> 01:33:38,080
at a dorito that's what he called it

2380
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:40,159
and uh that was quite an encounter every

2381
01:33:42,629 --> 01:33:41,920
time i've had leon i had him to talk

2382
01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:42,639
about that one

2383
01:33:46,229 --> 01:33:44,560
in particular i mean police were

2384
01:33:47,990 --> 01:33:46,239
involved in everything

2385
01:33:50,950 --> 01:33:48,000
so well i think there's one thing that

2386
01:33:54,470 --> 01:33:50,960
we can say and i don't think robert will

2387
01:33:57,990 --> 01:33:54,480
subjectively my impression is twofold

2388
01:34:01,910 --> 01:33:58,000
from 1947

2389
01:34:04,310 --> 01:34:01,920
to current day um these things

2390
01:34:05,350 --> 01:34:04,320
whatever they are physical physical

2391
01:34:08,470 --> 01:34:05,360
object

2392
01:34:09,510 --> 01:34:08,480
uh do not have to be aerodynamic they

2393
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:09,520
don't

2394
01:34:16,870 --> 01:34:13,520
the the bridge girder things

2395
01:34:19,270 --> 01:34:16,880
can accelerate just as quickly as the

2396
01:34:22,149 --> 01:34:19,280
disc you know there's there's no

2397
01:34:24,470 --> 01:34:22,159
aerodynamic and there's no change they

2398
01:34:26,750 --> 01:34:24,480
could accelerate

2399
01:34:28,149 --> 01:34:26,760
and go out of sight just as quickly in

2400
01:34:30,709 --> 01:34:28,159
1947

2401
01:34:32,709 --> 01:34:30,719
as they can now and one of the things

2402
01:34:35,189 --> 01:34:32,719
that troubles me about the nimitz

2403
01:34:37,110 --> 01:34:35,199
incident is everybody seems to think the

2404
01:34:40,390 --> 01:34:37,120
capabilities

2405
01:34:42,070 --> 01:34:40,400
of of the tic tacs

2406
01:34:43,910 --> 01:34:42,080
are something new and awesome and

2407
01:34:46,790 --> 01:34:43,920
impressive and i will say

2408
01:34:47,350 --> 01:34:46,800
no they're not they could do that same

2409
01:34:49,510 --> 01:34:47,360
thing

2410
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:49,520
way back when and they could evade

2411
01:34:54,790 --> 01:34:51,440
interceptors

2412
01:34:58,830 --> 01:34:54,800
as far as

2413
01:35:01,270 --> 01:34:58,840
acceleration and maneuverability and

2414
01:35:02,629 --> 01:35:01,280
non-necessarily aerodynamic flight

2415
01:35:04,629 --> 01:35:02,639
characteristics

2416
01:35:06,390 --> 01:35:04,639
you have that from the very first

2417
01:35:07,910 --> 01:35:06,400
sightings on

2418
01:35:09,590 --> 01:35:07,920
well i remember hearing back in the

2419
01:35:12,070 --> 01:35:09,600
1960s they had

2420
01:35:13,990 --> 01:35:12,080
i want to say it was up off of canada or

2421
01:35:16,790 --> 01:35:14,000
something they clocked

2422
01:35:17,350 --> 01:35:16,800
a ufo on radar at over 20 000 miles an

2423
01:35:19,990 --> 01:35:17,360
hour

2424
01:35:20,390 --> 01:35:20,000
you know it was a long time ago there

2425
01:35:23,189 --> 01:35:20,400
was

2426
01:35:25,189 --> 01:35:23,199
actually a one of the few reports that

2427
01:35:27,990 --> 01:35:25,199
we have documented that made it to the

2428
01:35:31,189 --> 01:35:28,000
nsc the national security council

2429
01:35:33,830 --> 01:35:31,199
was a track of an object

2430
01:35:34,950 --> 01:35:33,840
going over the united states completely

2431
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:34,960
over the u.s

2432
01:35:39,669 --> 01:35:37,760
from east to west which is kind of

2433
01:35:42,950 --> 01:35:39,679
interesting

2434
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:42,960
at i think it was eighteen

2435
01:35:47,350 --> 01:35:45,760
thousand miles per hour it might be the

2436
01:35:49,669 --> 01:35:47,360
same one i'm talking about

2437
01:35:51,590 --> 01:35:49,679
could be the same one and and the and

2438
01:35:53,590 --> 01:35:51,600
the interesting thing was it's like

2439
01:35:56,629 --> 01:35:53,600
should we be worried about this

2440
01:35:58,390 --> 01:35:56,639
and the cia representative said well

2441
01:36:00,149 --> 01:35:58,400
we know the russians don't have anything

2442
01:36:03,590 --> 01:36:00,159
like that and everybody went

2443
01:36:06,629 --> 01:36:03,600
okay we're not worried uh oh

2444
01:36:09,430 --> 01:36:06,639
fine which gets back to

2445
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:09,440
you know the track that you played

2446
01:36:13,510 --> 01:36:10,560
during the

2447
01:36:15,830 --> 01:36:13,520
intermission there about we have not

2448
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:15,840
shown these things to be a threat

2449
01:36:20,629 --> 01:36:18,719
and therefore we can ignore them like we

2450
01:36:22,229 --> 01:36:20,639
won't really take them seriously until

2451
01:36:25,910 --> 01:36:22,239
they hurt us

2452
01:36:28,870 --> 01:36:25,920
so actually that was that was used as

2453
01:36:30,310 --> 01:36:28,880
that was used both in 1952 with the

2454
01:36:32,470 --> 01:36:30,320
robertson panel

2455
01:36:34,229 --> 01:36:32,480
and at the end of the whole blooper

2456
01:36:36,390 --> 01:36:34,239
project to say

2457
01:36:38,870 --> 01:36:36,400
you know we don't have to devote

2458
01:36:40,470 --> 01:36:38,880
resources to this because

2459
01:36:41,910 --> 01:36:40,480
we get all these reports and they've

2460
01:36:44,950 --> 01:36:41,920
never attacked us

2461
01:36:47,750 --> 01:36:44,960
i think it was 1953 the robertson panel

2462
01:36:48,229 --> 01:36:47,760
right yeah they tried to kick it off at

2463
01:36:51,510 --> 01:36:48,239
the

2464
01:36:53,990 --> 01:36:51,520
were actually going to make

2465
01:36:55,590 --> 01:36:54,000
the same thing happen with the nsc at

2466
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,600
the end of 52

2467
01:36:58,629 --> 01:36:57,600
and then the robertson panel was

2468
01:37:02,149 --> 01:36:58,639
convened in

2469
01:37:06,070 --> 01:37:02,159
early 1953 and just shut it down

2470
01:37:10,310 --> 01:37:06,080
right right we have luke uh

2471
01:37:12,950 --> 01:37:10,320
calling from l.a lou welcome to the show

2472
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:12,960
hey martin how you doing uh awesome show

2473
01:37:15,830 --> 01:37:13,920
as always

2474
01:37:17,430 --> 01:37:15,840
uh larry thank you for coming on the

2475
01:37:18,950 --> 01:37:17,440
show and and sharing

2476
01:37:21,030 --> 01:37:18,960
all the knowledge that you've put on the

2477
01:37:21,990 --> 01:37:21,040
table so far so i've been in and out of

2478
01:37:22,790 --> 01:37:22,000
the interview just because i've been

2479
01:37:24,709 --> 01:37:22,800
busy but

2480
01:37:25,990 --> 01:37:24,719
uh so forgive me if i ask you something

2481
01:37:28,070 --> 01:37:26,000
that you've already been asked but you

2482
01:37:28,629 --> 01:37:28,080
did say earlier that you were a document

2483
01:37:31,669 --> 01:37:28,639
geek

2484
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:31,679
and i was curious to know

2485
01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:34,320
what is your favorite document that

2486
01:37:38,310 --> 01:37:35,440
you've come across

2487
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:38,320
having to do with the topic of ufos um

2488
01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:40,400
and is that document publicly available

2489
01:37:45,350 --> 01:37:42,880
for people to see

2490
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:45,360
yes my favorite documents actually and

2491
01:37:49,350 --> 01:37:46,159
this

2492
01:37:51,990 --> 01:37:49,360
because it has so much irony are the

2493
01:37:54,470 --> 01:37:52,000
documents the internal memoranda

2494
01:37:55,430 --> 01:37:54,480
within the air force between wright

2495
01:37:58,629 --> 01:37:55,440
patterson

2496
01:38:01,189 --> 01:37:58,639
and air intelligence in washington dc

2497
01:38:03,109 --> 01:38:01,199
uh they're they're basically the

2498
01:38:04,790 --> 01:38:03,119
internal study documents

2499
01:38:06,229 --> 01:38:04,800
where when they're taking the subject

2500
01:38:10,030 --> 01:38:06,239
very seriously back

2501
01:38:12,950 --> 01:38:10,040
from 1947 through

2502
01:38:14,229 --> 01:38:12,960
1952 1953 they're taking it very

2503
01:38:17,669 --> 01:38:14,239
seriously

2504
01:38:20,950 --> 01:38:17,679
and and the memoranda say

2505
01:38:23,030 --> 01:38:20,960
that and there are several estimates and

2506
01:38:24,310 --> 01:38:23,040
assessments saying that these things are

2507
01:38:26,950 --> 01:38:24,320
real

2508
01:38:27,669 --> 01:38:26,960
and they have to be taken seriously and

2509
01:38:32,390 --> 01:38:27,679
that they

2510
01:38:33,590 --> 01:38:32,400
be soviet reconnaissance and

2511
01:38:36,149 --> 01:38:33,600
surveillance

2512
01:38:37,109 --> 01:38:36,159
so those internal memories which we have

2513
01:38:39,830 --> 01:38:37,119
in which i i

2514
01:38:40,550 --> 01:38:39,840
cite in the book uh and give links to

2515
01:38:43,990 --> 01:38:40,560
them

2516
01:38:46,629 --> 01:38:44,000
um tell a totally different story

2517
01:38:47,430 --> 01:38:46,639
than the air force statements to the

2518
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:47,440
public

2519
01:38:51,189 --> 01:38:49,840
as the one martin just paid played in

2520
01:38:54,229 --> 01:38:51,199
the intermission so

2521
01:38:56,550 --> 01:38:54,239
i think that's

2522
01:38:58,629 --> 01:38:56,560
when you compare the internal story to

2523
01:39:00,709 --> 01:38:58,639
the external story

2524
01:39:02,550 --> 01:39:00,719
those are some of my favorites my other

2525
01:39:03,030 --> 01:39:02,560
favorite that would really have to stand

2526
01:39:06,229 --> 01:39:03,040
out is

2527
01:39:10,870 --> 01:39:06,239
at oak ridge

2528
01:39:14,950 --> 01:39:14,070
radar stations around oak ridge observed

2529
01:39:18,229 --> 01:39:14,960
these really

2530
01:39:20,470 --> 01:39:18,239
mysterious tracks and the tracks would

2531
01:39:23,109 --> 01:39:20,480
come and they would be documented and

2532
01:39:24,629 --> 01:39:23,119
you can tell the radar operators are are

2533
01:39:26,870 --> 01:39:24,639
really concerned about them and they

2534
01:39:27,910 --> 01:39:26,880
finally badger wright patterson enough

2535
01:39:30,709 --> 01:39:27,920
to send

2536
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:30,719
some some people down and they come down

2537
01:39:33,510 --> 01:39:31,760
and say well you guys

2538
01:39:34,950 --> 01:39:33,520
you really just you don't know what

2539
01:39:37,109 --> 01:39:34,960
you're talking about those

2540
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:37,119
those things that you see on radar are

2541
01:39:42,950 --> 01:39:40,560
their their towers or their telephone

2542
01:39:46,229 --> 01:39:42,960
lines or their ground clutter

2543
01:39:47,189 --> 01:39:46,239
and um you know so we're gonna go home

2544
01:39:49,350 --> 01:39:47,199
and we're done

2545
01:39:51,669 --> 01:39:49,360
with this and so that memorandum is

2546
01:39:54,149 --> 01:39:51,679
available even the fbi there's a whole

2547
01:39:55,669 --> 01:39:54,159
set of fbi memoranda showing they're

2548
01:39:58,950 --> 01:39:55,679
concerned about it too

2549
01:40:01,990 --> 01:39:58,960
so the blue book guys go back home and

2550
01:40:05,030 --> 01:40:02,000
the local unit air force unit

2551
01:40:07,030 --> 01:40:05,040
internal memo says well you know

2552
01:40:08,709 --> 01:40:07,040
clearly they think we're pretty stupid

2553
01:40:11,750 --> 01:40:08,719
the question is if that's

2554
01:40:14,790 --> 01:40:11,760
if those radar reflections are come from

2555
01:40:18,550 --> 01:40:14,800
coming from stationary ground objects

2556
01:40:20,310 --> 01:40:18,560
why don't we see them all the time

2557
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:20,320
why do they just you know they're here

2558
01:40:23,990 --> 01:40:22,639
now and then they

2559
01:40:25,669 --> 01:40:24,000
you know and they it's a very

2560
01:40:27,510 --> 01:40:25,679
interesting document because they're

2561
01:40:30,470 --> 01:40:27,520
defending themselves

2562
01:40:31,270 --> 01:40:30,480
and basically deconstructing this very

2563
01:40:35,109 --> 01:40:31,280
simplistic

2564
01:40:37,510 --> 01:40:35,119
wright patterson uh assessment so

2565
01:40:38,950 --> 01:40:37,520
those are kind of my i just happen to

2566
01:40:41,510 --> 01:40:38,960
like it when

2567
01:40:42,550 --> 01:40:41,520
various elements inside the service you

2568
01:40:45,750 --> 01:40:42,560
know just

2569
01:40:47,189 --> 01:40:45,760
are totally conflict with each other

2570
01:40:49,189 --> 01:40:47,199
that's great hey lou do you have

2571
01:40:51,030 --> 01:40:49,199
anything else

2572
01:40:52,629 --> 01:40:51,040
yeah just one more quick question if you

2573
01:40:55,510 --> 01:40:52,639
don't mind um

2574
01:40:57,189 --> 01:40:55,520
just do you think what is the

2575
01:40:59,189 --> 01:40:57,199
possibility that

2576
01:41:01,669 --> 01:40:59,199
that what we're dealing with as far as a

2577
01:41:03,910 --> 01:41:01,679
phenomenon is concerned is just

2578
01:41:05,350 --> 01:41:03,920
tech that we've figured out uh that

2579
01:41:08,189 --> 01:41:05,360
humans are figured out

2580
01:41:10,070 --> 01:41:08,199
but it is hidden on uh you know on a

2581
01:41:10,629 --> 01:41:10,080
military-industrial complex kind of

2582
01:41:12,550 --> 01:41:10,639
level

2583
01:41:14,310 --> 01:41:12,560
where it's special access programs where

2584
01:41:17,590 --> 01:41:14,320
not even the president can get to it

2585
01:41:18,550 --> 01:41:17,600
and we just haven't the technology's so

2586
01:41:20,629 --> 01:41:18,560
advanced

2587
01:41:21,990 --> 01:41:20,639
that we haven't been able to apply it to

2588
01:41:24,709 --> 01:41:22,000
everyday life they

2589
01:41:25,350 --> 01:41:24,719
just haven't figured out a way to apply

2590
01:41:27,350 --> 01:41:25,360
it to

2591
01:41:29,669 --> 01:41:27,360
other things other even militarily

2592
01:41:30,870 --> 01:41:29,679
speaking like if we've had this tech for

2593
01:41:32,870 --> 01:41:30,880
say 60 years

2594
01:41:33,990 --> 01:41:32,880
how come we haven't seen it applied to a

2595
01:41:36,790 --> 01:41:34,000
stealth fighter

2596
01:41:37,350 --> 01:41:36,800
or um or some other military tech where

2597
01:41:39,270 --> 01:41:37,360
we see

2598
01:41:41,910 --> 01:41:39,280
you know any of the characteristics that

2599
01:41:43,669 --> 01:41:41,920
these phenomena display

2600
01:41:45,830 --> 01:41:43,679
you know i i figured we would have seen

2601
01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:45,840
it in some kind of military tech but the

2602
01:41:49,350 --> 01:41:47,440
fact that we have it kind of

2603
01:41:50,709 --> 01:41:49,360
maybe tells me you know that it is

2604
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:50,719
possibly human but we just haven't

2605
01:41:53,109 --> 01:41:51,840
figured out how to apply it

2606
01:41:54,870 --> 01:41:53,119
what do you think about that just out of

2607
01:41:57,669 --> 01:41:54,880
curiosity

2608
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:57,679
i two things strike me about that and

2609
01:42:03,189 --> 01:41:59,679
one is the comment that i just made

2610
01:42:06,310 --> 01:42:03,199
that as far as the tech it had the same

2611
01:42:09,669 --> 01:42:06,320
capabilities back in 1947

2612
01:42:11,590 --> 01:42:09,679
that it does now you know it it's

2613
01:42:13,189 --> 01:42:11,600
you know it didn't get any better and

2614
01:42:17,189 --> 01:42:13,199
and it's been

2615
01:42:20,550 --> 01:42:17,199
displayed why would you if you had that

2616
01:42:24,149 --> 01:42:20,560
kind of technology in 1947 and 19

2617
01:42:25,910 --> 01:42:24,159
and and why in 1952 would you scare the

2618
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:25,920
entire nation to death

2619
01:42:31,030 --> 01:42:28,880
by flying it over washington dc it's a

2620
01:42:33,590 --> 01:42:31,040
if you had that technology

2621
01:42:36,229 --> 01:42:33,600
and and we can model that i mean we do

2622
01:42:39,109 --> 01:42:36,239
know a lot about the stealth technology

2623
01:42:40,470 --> 01:42:39,119
that we developed and how we held it and

2624
01:42:42,790 --> 01:42:40,480
where we used it

2625
01:42:44,870 --> 01:42:42,800
and you know that was very advanced

2626
01:42:45,910 --> 01:42:44,880
technology and we now have the history

2627
01:42:48,709 --> 01:42:45,920
of that

2628
01:42:49,590 --> 01:42:48,719
and can map it against this uh ufo

2629
01:42:52,870 --> 01:42:49,600
phenomena

2630
01:42:56,310 --> 01:42:52,880
and it doesn't map when you've got that

2631
01:42:59,430 --> 01:42:56,320
that technology you operationalize it

2632
01:43:02,070 --> 01:42:59,440
and you keep it secret you don't

2633
01:43:03,270 --> 01:43:02,080
you don't fly it over your own atomic

2634
01:43:07,030 --> 01:43:03,280
weapons complex

2635
01:43:07,910 --> 01:43:07,040
you know uh it just that doesn't make

2636
01:43:10,629 --> 01:43:07,920
sense to me

2637
01:43:11,270 --> 01:43:10,639
so because the tech has not really

2638
01:43:13,990 --> 01:43:11,280
changed

2639
01:43:15,350 --> 01:43:14,000
because we have not operationalized it

2640
01:43:18,149 --> 01:43:15,360
and because we've

2641
01:43:19,590 --> 01:43:18,159
been using it we would have been using

2642
01:43:21,750 --> 01:43:19,600
it against our own

2643
01:43:22,870 --> 01:43:21,760
security facilities to no obvious

2644
01:43:25,750 --> 01:43:22,880
purpose

2645
01:43:28,709 --> 01:43:25,760
uh it doesn't make much sense to me that

2646
01:43:30,550 --> 01:43:28,719
it's something we have

2647
01:43:32,070 --> 01:43:30,560
yeah well you make some great points and

2648
01:43:32,550 --> 01:43:32,080
i appreciate you answering the questions

2649
01:43:34,790 --> 01:43:32,560
larry

2650
01:43:36,470 --> 01:43:34,800
uh a true gentleman and martin thank you

2651
01:43:39,590 --> 01:43:36,480
again uh awesome show

2652
01:43:41,669 --> 01:43:39,600
keep it great hey thanks thanks luke

2653
01:43:43,750 --> 01:43:41,679
take care

2654
01:43:45,189 --> 01:43:43,760
bye uh i should tell everyone the line

2655
01:43:48,950 --> 01:43:45,199
is open and for

2656
01:43:50,790 --> 01:43:48,960
those of you over kg r a a uh radio that

2657
01:43:54,950 --> 01:43:50,800
do not see the number up there it's

2658
01:43:56,870 --> 01:43:54,960
eight 855-472-5483

2659
01:43:59,109 --> 01:43:56,880
and bill is standing by and thank you

2660
01:44:01,030 --> 01:43:59,119
for that bill um

2661
01:44:02,950 --> 01:44:01,040
one of the the questions that comes to

2662
01:44:06,149 --> 01:44:02,960
mind for me

2663
01:44:08,709 --> 01:44:06,159
is uh when

2664
01:44:09,750 --> 01:44:08,719
you talk about these things take off

2665
01:44:12,149 --> 01:44:09,760
really fast

2666
01:44:13,910 --> 01:44:12,159
do people ever talk about triangles

2667
01:44:16,310 --> 01:44:13,920
taking shooting off i don't i never

2668
01:44:20,470 --> 01:44:16,320
really hear that

2669
01:44:23,350 --> 01:44:20,480
they do it's it's less

2670
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:23,360
obvious but the the interesting thing is

2671
01:44:27,350 --> 01:44:25,520
the triangles

2672
01:44:29,270 --> 01:44:27,360
one of the things we've found and what

2673
01:44:31,750 --> 01:44:29,280
we've seen so far is this

2674
01:44:33,030 --> 01:44:31,760
extreme acceleration is not all that

2675
01:44:36,550 --> 01:44:33,040
common

2676
01:44:38,629 --> 01:44:36,560
it's it's there all the time but most

2677
01:44:40,790 --> 01:44:38,639
most observations especially the

2678
01:44:44,629 --> 01:44:40,800
close-up observations

2679
01:44:47,990 --> 01:44:44,639
are of relatively slow speed objects

2680
01:44:50,629 --> 01:44:48,000
that either just drift away they go over

2681
01:44:53,669 --> 01:44:50,639
the treetops they go out of sight

2682
01:44:56,870 --> 01:44:53,679
or they disappear and

2683
01:44:59,350 --> 01:44:56,880
literally or i would speculate

2684
01:45:00,390 --> 01:44:59,360
have it accelerated faster than the eye

2685
01:45:02,790 --> 01:45:00,400
can perceive

2686
01:45:03,750 --> 01:45:02,800
and that is true for all those objects

2687
01:45:05,910 --> 01:45:03,760
for every

2688
01:45:07,030 --> 01:45:05,920
shape of objects that i've seen so far

2689
01:45:09,270 --> 01:45:07,040
you can find

2690
01:45:10,870 --> 01:45:09,280
at least a handful of incidents of where

2691
01:45:13,750 --> 01:45:10,880
they appear to have that extreme

2692
01:45:14,790 --> 01:45:13,760
acceleration capability even the hudson

2693
01:45:17,990 --> 01:45:14,800
valley

2694
01:45:20,229 --> 01:45:18,000
bridge girder construct things um

2695
01:45:21,189 --> 01:45:20,239
so that that's one of the things that's

2696
01:45:23,669 --> 01:45:21,199
very puzzling

2697
01:45:24,629 --> 01:45:23,679
from a scientific standpoint because it

2698
01:45:28,229 --> 01:45:24,639
it suggests

2699
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:28,239
that whatever the propulsion is

2700
01:45:34,229 --> 01:45:31,920
whatever is is irrespective of the shape

2701
01:45:34,550 --> 01:45:34,239
of the object itself or how massive it

2702
01:45:37,030 --> 01:45:34,560
is

2703
01:45:38,709 --> 01:45:37,040
because you might have thought well okay

2704
01:45:41,590 --> 01:45:38,719
if it's drone sized

2705
01:45:41,990 --> 01:45:41,600
if it's three feet it can do that but if

2706
01:45:44,790 --> 01:45:42,000
it's

2707
01:45:47,030 --> 01:45:44,800
a quarter mile long it can't that

2708
01:45:47,590 --> 01:45:47,040
distinction does not seem to hold yet

2709
01:45:49,270 --> 01:45:47,600
and

2710
01:45:50,950 --> 01:45:49,280
robert when you listen to this i know we

2711
01:45:51,990 --> 01:45:50,960
don't have the statistics plotted on

2712
01:45:55,270 --> 01:45:52,000
that so that was just

2713
01:45:57,189 --> 01:45:55,280
a you know an opinion i'll i'll follow

2714
01:46:00,149 --> 01:45:57,199
up on that but for now we have jan

2715
01:46:01,350 --> 01:46:00,159
aldrich on the line from connecticut jen

2716
01:46:05,750 --> 01:46:01,360
welcome to the show

2717
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:05,760
good to have you on thank you

2718
01:46:11,990 --> 01:46:08,800
say uh i'd like to ask larry if he's uh

2719
01:46:13,669 --> 01:46:12,000
he's seen this it seems to me that

2720
01:46:16,470 --> 01:46:13,679
towards the end of blue book they took

2721
01:46:19,109 --> 01:46:16,480
away the intelligence

2722
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:19,119
in other words heineken colonel friend

2723
01:46:22,470 --> 01:46:19,600
had

2724
01:46:24,870 --> 01:46:22,480
their goal is to get ufo project blue

2725
01:46:26,470 --> 01:46:24,880
book out of intelligence and in

2726
01:46:28,550 --> 01:46:26,480
research and development which they

2727
01:46:31,830 --> 01:46:28,560
succeeded in doing but

2728
01:46:35,350 --> 01:46:31,840
apparently it didn't change any policies

2729
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:35,360
however after blue book

2730
01:46:42,550 --> 01:46:40,000
it seems that operations is

2731
01:46:44,470 --> 01:46:42,560
intruding into this area i'm not saying

2732
01:46:48,870 --> 01:46:44,480
that intelligence is

2733
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:53,030
operations seems to be

2734
01:46:59,669 --> 01:46:56,070
the collection point for

2735
01:47:02,870 --> 01:46:59,679
ufos opera iii's

2736
01:47:04,550 --> 01:47:02,880
serious ins uh serious uh incident

2737
01:47:08,470 --> 01:47:04,560
reports and

2738
01:47:12,229 --> 01:47:08,480
this uh service

2739
01:47:15,830 --> 01:47:12,239
uh system is handed over to

2740
01:47:18,070 --> 01:47:15,840
uh operations um

2741
01:47:20,470 --> 01:47:18,080
have you looked at that at all yeah

2742
01:47:23,830 --> 01:47:20,480
that's absolutely my impression it's

2743
01:47:27,709 --> 01:47:23,840
it's just during i would say

2744
01:47:31,350 --> 01:47:27,719
through you know through 1953

2745
01:47:33,109 --> 01:47:31,360
1954 air intelligence was

2746
01:47:34,470 --> 01:47:33,119
involved right along with wright

2747
01:47:36,790 --> 01:47:34,480
patterson

2748
01:47:38,550 --> 01:47:36,800
and you know and sometimes air

2749
01:47:40,629 --> 01:47:38,560
intelligence was looking at it more

2750
01:47:43,669 --> 01:47:40,639
seriously than wright patterson was

2751
01:47:46,629 --> 01:47:43,679
uh during the grudge era i would say

2752
01:47:48,629 --> 01:47:46,639
air intelligence on occasion looked at

2753
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:48,639
it more seriously and finally in

2754
01:47:52,870 --> 01:47:51,119
the initial phase of blue book wright

2755
01:47:54,550 --> 01:47:52,880
patterson and air intelligence were

2756
01:47:55,510 --> 01:47:54,560
hand-in-hand thinking it was something

2757
01:47:59,350 --> 01:47:55,520
serious

2758
01:48:02,229 --> 01:47:59,360
after robertson panel blue book became

2759
01:48:04,070 --> 01:48:02,239
um you know this dance it became a you

2760
01:48:05,669 --> 01:48:04,080
know we want to reassure the public

2761
01:48:07,430 --> 01:48:05,679
we're going to look at these incidents

2762
01:48:09,350 --> 01:48:07,440
one at a time and we're going to come up

2763
01:48:11,109 --> 01:48:09,360
with an explanation for

2764
01:48:14,070 --> 01:48:11,119
for each one and we're going to remove

2765
01:48:14,629 --> 01:48:14,080
it as being a psychological warfare

2766
01:48:17,590 --> 01:48:14,639
issue

2767
01:48:19,030 --> 01:48:17,600
we're going to remove it from you know

2768
01:48:22,229 --> 01:48:19,040
obstructing

2769
01:48:25,669 --> 01:48:22,239
reports of real threats and

2770
01:48:27,030 --> 01:48:25,679
that continued onward to me to the end

2771
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:27,040
of blue book

2772
01:48:30,470 --> 01:48:29,440
and what really happened at the end of

2773
01:48:33,910 --> 01:48:30,480
blue book is

2774
01:48:37,990 --> 01:48:33,920
as you say it became operational

2775
01:48:40,790 --> 01:48:38,000
it it kind of service transitioned into

2776
01:48:42,629 --> 01:48:40,800
oprep reports and it became

2777
01:48:45,189 --> 01:48:42,639
it still was a matter of threat

2778
01:48:48,470 --> 01:48:45,199
reporting but it was threat reporting

2779
01:48:51,030 --> 01:48:48,480
inside the chains of command to the

2780
01:48:53,669 --> 01:48:51,040
you know to you the group's headquarters

2781
01:48:55,910 --> 01:48:53,679
to the group's operational headquarters

2782
01:48:58,229 --> 01:48:55,920
you know we have the reports out of this

2783
01:48:59,350 --> 01:48:58,239
the 70s that some of them that do go to

2784
01:49:01,910 --> 01:48:59,360
no red

2785
01:49:02,629 --> 01:49:01,920
some of them do go to the pentagon but

2786
01:49:05,669 --> 01:49:02,639
they're all

2787
01:49:08,870 --> 01:49:05,679
operational incident type reports

2788
01:49:11,430 --> 01:49:08,880
and they're as far as we can tell as far

2789
01:49:13,830 --> 01:49:11,440
as i can tell from the document chains

2790
01:49:17,270 --> 01:49:13,840
once they're they're resolved it's kind

2791
01:49:20,390 --> 01:49:17,280
of like the northern tier sightings once

2792
01:49:23,510 --> 01:49:20,400
the pentagon is satisfied that it's

2793
01:49:25,669 --> 01:49:23,520
not a actual threat it doesn't go

2794
01:49:28,470 --> 01:49:25,679
into an air intelligence study it

2795
01:49:29,030 --> 01:49:28,480
certainly doesn't go into up the chain

2796
01:49:30,950 --> 01:49:29,040
of con

2797
01:49:32,629 --> 01:49:30,960
command to higher level study and i

2798
01:49:35,350 --> 01:49:32,639
think that's where we set today

2799
01:49:36,149 --> 01:49:35,360
and i think that's looking at the navy

2800
01:49:39,350 --> 01:49:36,159
after

2801
01:49:42,470 --> 01:49:39,360
nimitz we're kind of back to that

2802
01:49:44,390 --> 01:49:42,480
threat reporting you know it's it's it's

2803
01:49:47,430 --> 01:49:44,400
not that they're ignoring it but if

2804
01:49:52,950 --> 01:49:47,440
it's just on a one-off basis uh

2805
01:49:57,270 --> 01:49:55,030
yeah i think we need to discuss this

2806
01:50:01,669 --> 01:49:57,280
sometime when we have time

2807
01:50:05,350 --> 01:50:01,679
sure jan i'm so glad you called in

2808
01:50:08,470 --> 01:50:05,360
nice nice to hear your voice okay

2809
01:50:11,270 --> 01:50:08,480
thank you all right take care

2810
01:50:12,149 --> 01:50:11,280
um one of the things i i should should

2811
01:50:14,550 --> 01:50:12,159
ask or

2812
01:50:16,310 --> 01:50:14,560
point out because uh you know i kind of

2813
01:50:17,510 --> 01:50:16,320
forget a lot of times that there's a lot

2814
01:50:19,189 --> 01:50:17,520
of new listeners

2815
01:50:21,109 --> 01:50:19,199
to the show and a lot of times they have

2816
01:50:23,270 --> 01:50:21,119
no idea what we're talking about

2817
01:50:25,109 --> 01:50:23,280
um when we talk about the robertson

2818
01:50:26,070 --> 01:50:25,119
panel now came up four or five times

2819
01:50:28,870 --> 01:50:26,080
tonight

2820
01:50:30,070 --> 01:50:28,880
and um i think if you would kind of for

2821
01:50:32,470 --> 01:50:30,080
the new listener

2822
01:50:33,510 --> 01:50:32,480
uh talk about really how they try to

2823
01:50:37,030 --> 01:50:33,520
destroy

2824
01:50:40,229 --> 01:50:37,040
the integrity of ufo sightings

2825
01:50:42,070 --> 01:50:40,239
in a nutshell if you could sure and

2826
01:50:44,310 --> 01:50:42,080
basically again at this point at the end

2827
01:50:46,950 --> 01:50:44,320
of 1952 with both

2828
01:50:49,750 --> 01:50:46,960
the air force and the office of

2829
01:50:51,910 --> 01:50:49,760
scientific intelligence within the cia

2830
01:50:53,589 --> 01:50:51,920
in agreement that this was a national

2831
01:50:56,950 --> 01:50:53,599
security issue

2832
01:51:00,310 --> 01:50:56,960
the cia director was persuaded

2833
01:51:02,390 --> 01:51:00,320
to send memoranda that proposed

2834
01:51:03,910 --> 01:51:02,400
taking this to the national security

2835
01:51:06,390 --> 01:51:03,920
council

2836
01:51:08,229 --> 01:51:06,400
the adviser intelligence advisory group

2837
01:51:09,830 --> 01:51:08,239
for the national security council

2838
01:51:11,910 --> 01:51:09,840
that's where it has to go first all this

2839
01:51:15,270 --> 01:51:11,920
stuff has to go through tears

2840
01:51:15,990 --> 01:51:15,280
i said you know we need scientific

2841
01:51:19,030 --> 01:51:16,000
endorsement

2842
01:51:21,270 --> 01:51:19,040
so you you've told us this is a threat

2843
01:51:23,430 --> 01:51:21,280
but what we need to know from you

2844
01:51:25,109 --> 01:51:23,440
to know and for scientists to confirm is

2845
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:25,119
that these are real

2846
01:51:30,390 --> 01:51:28,400
physical objects they're not unknown

2847
01:51:32,470 --> 01:51:30,400
scientific phenomena so if they'll

2848
01:51:35,030 --> 01:51:32,480
endorse that you've endorsed the thread

2849
01:51:37,669 --> 01:51:35,040
site if they'll endorse that they're

2850
01:51:38,709 --> 01:51:37,679
real artifacts essentially then we'll

2851
01:51:40,229 --> 01:51:38,719
take it up

2852
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:40,239
the chain into the intelligence

2853
01:51:46,550 --> 01:51:42,000
community

2854
01:51:47,350 --> 01:51:46,560
to do that a panel was convened and

2855
01:51:49,350 --> 01:51:47,360
actually

2856
01:51:50,470 --> 01:51:49,360
i write about this at some length in the

2857
01:51:52,950 --> 01:51:50,480
book that

2858
01:51:53,990 --> 01:51:52,960
it was hard to recruit scientists as we

2859
01:51:56,070 --> 01:51:54,000
said earlier

2860
01:51:58,470 --> 01:51:56,080
martin we're talking about heineken

2861
01:51:59,430 --> 01:51:58,480
astronomers and scientists in general do

2862
01:52:01,589 --> 01:51:59,440
not want

2863
01:52:03,830 --> 01:52:01,599
their careers tarnished by this subject

2864
01:52:06,709 --> 01:52:03,840
so they really had to strong arm

2865
01:52:07,990 --> 01:52:06,719
about half a dozen scientists to get

2866
01:52:12,070 --> 01:52:08,000
them on a panel

2867
01:52:14,870 --> 01:52:12,080
it was a very mixed bag of scientists

2868
01:52:15,990 --> 01:52:14,880
out of different disciplines and the

2869
01:52:17,669 --> 01:52:16,000
fascinating thing about

2870
01:52:19,589 --> 01:52:17,679
it and they had to they had to jump

2871
01:52:21,910 --> 01:52:19,599
through some hoops to get them

2872
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:21,920
the security clearances to look at what

2873
01:52:25,189 --> 01:52:23,440
the air force was going to bring in

2874
01:52:27,350 --> 01:52:25,199
front of them

2875
01:52:28,390 --> 01:52:27,360
the fascinating thing about it was when

2876
01:52:32,070 --> 01:52:28,400
the subject was

2877
01:52:34,390 --> 01:52:32,080
introduced to them their

2878
01:52:36,070 --> 01:52:34,400
assessment and their commentary and

2879
01:52:38,950 --> 01:52:36,080
their reports

2880
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:38,960
really didn't have to do with the

2881
01:52:43,669 --> 01:52:41,360
physical nature of the objects

2882
01:52:45,030 --> 01:52:43,679
they got sidetracked because of the way

2883
01:52:48,070 --> 01:52:45,040
they were briefed

2884
01:52:50,149 --> 01:52:48,080
into a discussion of psychology and

2885
01:52:52,950 --> 01:52:50,159
psychological warfare

2886
01:52:53,750 --> 01:52:52,960
and essentially their report took the

2887
01:52:56,149 --> 01:52:53,760
position

2888
01:52:56,790 --> 01:52:56,159
that this was a psychological warfare

2889
01:52:59,510 --> 01:52:56,800
issue

2890
01:53:00,550 --> 01:52:59,520
now you're going to ask why did why did

2891
01:53:03,830 --> 01:53:00,560
you convene a

2892
01:53:07,350 --> 01:53:03,840
panel of physical scientists to

2893
01:53:10,149 --> 01:53:07,360
give a judgment on psychological warfare

2894
01:53:11,990 --> 01:53:10,159
exactly i hate to say this but we we hit

2895
01:53:14,709 --> 01:53:12,000
the bottom of our time we are totally

2896
01:53:17,030 --> 01:53:14,719
out so i i wanna and i wish you could

2897
01:53:19,109 --> 01:53:17,040
continue on with that because it's uh

2898
01:53:20,070 --> 01:53:19,119
it was fascinating uh the book is

2899
01:53:21,910 --> 01:53:20,080
unidentified

2900
01:53:23,750 --> 01:53:21,920
the national intelligence problem of

2901
01:53:26,470 --> 01:53:23,760
ufos and my guest

2902
01:53:26,790 --> 01:53:26,480
this night i've really really enjoyed it

2903
01:53:29,430 --> 01:53:26,800
is

2904
01:53:30,790 --> 01:53:29,440
larry hancock thank you so much larry

2905
01:53:32,550 --> 01:53:30,800
was a pleasure

2906
01:53:34,390 --> 01:53:32,560
all right really really enjoyable i

2907
01:53:38,070 --> 01:53:34,400
really really enjoyed it a lot

2908
01:53:39,669 --> 01:53:38,080
so uh talk to you later now take care

2909
01:53:41,990 --> 01:53:39,679
all right everyone so thank you so much

2910
01:53:43,830 --> 01:53:42,000
for uh listening and watching

2911
01:53:45,189 --> 01:53:43,840
and we'll be back again next week as i

2912
01:53:48,229 --> 01:53:45,199
mentioned with

2913
01:53:49,750 --> 01:53:48,239
um we have uh ben hansen

2914
01:53:51,510 --> 01:53:49,760
he's gonna be talking about his new

2915
01:53:54,629 --> 01:53:51,520
discovery show

2916
01:53:56,550 --> 01:53:54,639
and also with him later on is uh

2917
01:53:58,390 --> 01:53:56,560
calvin parker so it'll be a great show

2918
01:53:59,750 --> 01:53:58,400
thanks so much everyone stay safe

2919
01:54:12,660 --> 01:53:59,760
see you next week and remember to keep